Kisha Reid: I am a true believer that any, any program can allow children to have authentic childhoods. It doesn’t matter where you’re located, doesn’t matter if you have a building or if you’re all outside. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a church or if you’re in a home. I think that it is not the building. It is, it is a mindset, and it is an environment that surpasses the walls.
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen. Hi, Kisha Reid.
Kisha Reid: Hello, rusty. So happy to see you again. Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: great to see you too. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Kisha Reid: I am looking forward to having this conversation with you as always.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. We always get into some good, good topics and conversation and so I’m looking forward to diving in. But before we do, let me read your bio. Kisha Reid has been working alongside children for 30 years and currently owns Discovery Natural Learning Center. A unique small program focused on holistic child development and authentic childhoods.
Her advocacy mission is fulfilled through her establishment of an organization called Play Empowers, which supports and engages play positive educators, parents, and policymakers. She’s currently spending her days in nature alongside children in Adamstown, Maryland.
Kisha Reid: Mm-hmm. My favorite place to be.
Rusty Keeler: Yay. Yay.
Well, tell us about that place. What’s it like where you’re, that this natural place that you’re spending time with children in?
Kisha Reid: It’s been such an evolution and in a journey for me, which works for my personality because I’m very much a dreamer right now in this beautiful process that I’m going through of working with young children.
I’m located in a retreat center, so. I was just blessed with the opportunity to move on the campus of this 300 acre place that was designed for children, like it’s been there for a hundred some years, and it was always a school. For children. So, whoa. That’s where it started and then it developed into this retreat center and, and it’s really missioned on bringing people closer to the earth, caring for creation and being out on the land.
So when I was reading the backstory of the space and I had hosted a retreat there, um, many years ago and fell in love. So to kind of go full circle and be welcomed into a space like that just felt like it was serendipitous. And that’s where we are now. We’re right there in the middle of campus. And what I love about being in the middle of campus is there are lots of adults who have to see children play.
Wow. And like see children in their natural state. And that was kind of, if I’m honest, the. The thing that made me feel uncomfortable at first about the idea, because we’ve been enjoying our little private life secluded, you know mm-hmm. Amongst the trees in our last location. So to be kind of put in the midst of the adults.
Going Zins was nerve wracking to me, but now I see the power of that, right? Adults walk by and they hear the children laughing and they see them engaging in these really things that you don’t typically see children engaging in. Like something as simple as climbing up a slide or carrying heavy. Pieces of lumber across the playground, and you can see the adults and teenagers in older children’s eyes light up.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And they’re
Kisha Reid: like, whoa. And I, I’ve heard more times than I can count how they wish their childhood was like that, or Wow, that really brings me back. So it’s, it’s wonderful to see. Adults experiencing this in ways that they probably normally wouldn’t.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Very different than the elementary school playground.
Mm-hmm. And yeah, where things are, uh, a little more restrictive. Did you say? Going up a slide?
Kisha Reid: Going up a slide. And it is just, if you just watch children climbing up a slide It is like be, it’s so beautiful. It’s a dance.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Kisha Reid: It is like this. You can see their muscles like working in their mind working and it’s not, it’s not easy. It’s not easy to, yes. Yes. So
Kisha Reid: it’s a progression, you know, from the first idea. And first of all, before the idea comes to even do it, it’s being in an environment where the possibility can even be considered. Right. For sure. Just the, the possibility that I am allowed to use this slide in ways that aren’t typically permitted.
Mm-hmm. So I see that on the face of new children who come from programs that have rules around slides. Yeah. And they’re just looking at me like. Do you see him? He is going up. Like, is that okay?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Kisha Reid: And then once you get past the idea that you can try this thing, the process of discovering that you, like, you can do it.
Like it’s hard. You’re gonna slip, you’re gonna fall, you’re gonna struggle, but you can do it. So it’s such a big metaphor for a lot of the work that we do.
Rusty Keeler: Ah, right. Interesting. You know, another thing about the slide is that it is, uh, as far as playground goes, or playground design, like. It is just like everything else.
It’s like there’s a structure and things coming off of it that are inviting the child, right? It’s inviting the child up. But we have these preconceived notions of rules that we think we have to have of like, oh no, that’s for down. Other things are for the spiral. You know, different kinds of things. Uh, and yet there it is, inviting children, come on up, try this thing and you know, you’ll be challenged.
But at the same time, it’s like a, it’s actually super. Pretty safe thing to do.
Kisha Reid: Yes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kisha Reid: Mm-hmm. And we have two slides side by side. So that adds another level of difficulty because it’s funny because children are going to, once they, uh, master something, they’re just gonna add another layer of difficulty, right?
They’re gonna keep challenging themselves right where they are. So you take. Two slides and they can offer the perfect amount of challenge to a hundred different children. ’cause they’re gonna use them. Yeah. How they need to use them. And we have some that have have begun sliding with half their body on one slide, half their body on the other side.
Yeah. Dangling through the space between the two. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the two slides provides this social challenge because somebody’s going down, somebody’s going up, how do we, you know? And even one slide does that, but it just complicates it in that beautiful way that they then have to practice some social emotional things.
They have to set some rules of their own. They have to either abide by them or shift the rules. And it’s just so much happening with a slide.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kisha Reid: And that’s just one teeny aspect of like their play outside.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Well, hey, I’m gonna back up just for our listeners, Uhhuh, um, thinking about slides and stuff because one slide that is famous to me, I love for years seeing pictures of your incredible spaces, kind of each, each step along the way, right?
You’re, you’re dreaming and starting small and starting big and you know, doing all these d different one that small Right? Right. Doing all over the place. But keep,
Rusty Keeler: keep going forward. And I’m looking forward to talking to about that, the kind of the dream and how you get to where you want to go too. But also, I’ve always loved all the scenes in all your amazing outdoor spaces and they, the, the whole thing of like this, the quote from play workers of like, uh, they ain’t pretty.
Kisha Reid: Yeah, they’re pretty,
Rusty Keeler: they’re pretty, they’re beautiful. I always say, has she ever cut the grass
Rusty Keeler: And the answer’s no. And I say, I love it. I love it. Yeah. This, this wild, you know, this wild amazing mess in, in one way. And at the same time, this wild, amazing, endless place of endless possibility for children’s play and growth and learning and, you know, fun, joy, the good, the bad, the emotional, the everything.
And the picture on the cover of my book, adventures in Risky Play is from you. You, you took that incredible picture. Uh, and I, we’ll, we will look at pictures at the end here, uh, because I wanna stare at that picture with you a little bit and talk about it. But just to, you know, for everyone to know, like, this is you, that’s, you’re the person who took that picture and.
Created that opportunity for whatever is about to happen in that pic. Mm-hmm. You know, next, you know, in that, in that picture. So that slides and challenge and, you know, I, I’ve been thinking, you know, I show another picture. This isn’t from your center because it’s like a standard piece of play equipment, but there’s like a little girl climate on the outside of like a bridge, the elevated bridge.
And of course the audience is like, you know, no, no, we can’t, we can’t allow that. But if you think about children’s progression of like growth from. Toddling wobbling and then starting to climb and you know, everything else, and to adulthood, like, like, okay, you reach a point. In your development when you are development mentally ready to walk on the outside of a bridge.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Right? Yep. Like as an adult, hopefully we can, or maybe we’re past the point of being there mm-hmm. Wanting to do that, but every child gets to that point. Mm-hmm. And yet as adults, we have these kind of def defined rules. And I, I’ve always seen you as someone who. Who almost like just puts those aside and you’re kind of looking at the, the child and the, and the scene and, and saying yes.
Mm-hmm. And then magic happens, and then challenge happens. But talk about that philosophy.
Kisha Reid: I think the, the root of that, of being able to do that is relationship. Like you really have to know the children, the individual child. You have to not only know the child, but know their process, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
If I’m really in tune, I know what they’re ready for. I know what they’re capable of. And this settles my soul. Like I’m not freaking out because I know that child. I know that he has worked on, he’s, he’s gone through the process. He wasn’t lifted up there by someone. You know, it’s, he’s not wobbly. This child is, has the confidence, has the knowhow, and has the experience to go to this next step.
And I think that’s rooted in deep observation. And authentic engagement with the children in front of us. It’s different for every child too. Like there, there are times when I’m like, oh my goodness. You know, a child might see another child do something and then think that they can jump to that level, that step and find out, oh no, I can’t.
So at that point, my assessment is not on stopping that child from learning that they can’t. It’s on looking around and seeing are there dangers? How can I make this safe for this child to learn that they can or they can’t? Sometimes that means throwing a pillow under where they are, uh, making sure there’s nothing hard to prohibit them to follow on, you know, maybe pointing out the edge of something so that they’re aware of it.
But it really is an intentional connection in relationship with the child, with the space, with their development, with all of the things. It’s just like a, a concoction.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. And you have to, you have
Kisha Reid: to be, um, in tune to do that.
Rusty Keeler: You know, it’s so interesting because one could look at the pictures, and again, we’ll look at some pictures mm-hmm.
And think it’s a free for all. Yeah. But that, what you’re saying is, it’s actually the opposite. It’s anything but a free for all. Mm-hmm. Now, children are free to explore and try things out and go, but as far as the, the educator, the adult. It’s not a free for all at all. You’re very aware and in tune.
Kisha Reid: Mm-hmm. Yep. Even when I’m intentionally trying to look like I’m not aware and in tune, because sometimes my eye not to, especially to the child, my eye not looking like I’m looking at them. It’s part of what they need in order to, to look inside themselves because we want this to be intrinsic work. We don’t want it to be performative.
We don’t want it to be that they’re calling, you know, paying more attention to us, looking at them than they are to their own limbs working. So sometimes to outside eye, they might think. That I’m not watching, I’m not in tune. I don’t know what’s going on. In fact, I am all over it. Like I am in tune and connected and the same thing goes with sometimes that I needs to make contact, you know?
Mm-hmm. It’s such a intricate dance and you’re right, it’s not a free for all it, it really isn’t.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. And I say that to people when we talk about risky play of like, no, it doesn’t mean, oh, you’re just saying yes, everything, and turn your back and taking the Yeah. You know, whatever. Oh, good luck. Coffee break doing that.
Yeah, yeah. No, no. If you wanna really support children in their, you know, their, their authentic growth and, you know, try new things. You have to really be on your toes. You have to really be, yeah.
Kisha Reid: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s more, you’re more on your toes. It’s interesting because I would say I’m more relaxed. And more engaged and it feels good.
At first, when I first came to this new location and I was able to like, ah, like really nestle into the beauty around me, I kept saying, oh, I’m tired. I’m tired, I feel tired. And I said, no, wait a minute. Hold on. I’m at peace. Is peace. Oh, I feel a sense of peace and comfort in the knowing. Um, and the more I get to know the children and the families and the environment and the space, that sense of peace grows within me.
So it is just when you’re in tune, it’s beautiful.
Rusty Keeler: Hmm. How many children do you have? How many adults are with the kids? Mm-hmm.
Kisha Reid: So as you said before, going from big to small to all these things. Currently I have last year, um, I’m licensed for 15. So it’s intentionally a small group.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kisha Reid: And right now I have eight and I will love it.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I think, I think this year I said we’ll do 10, um. But I love eight like it has been. So I know it’s not realistic for everybody and there are programs of all different sizes. Sure. I really enjoyed 13, I love 15, which is why I got licensed for 15. Okay. I think there are positives in all.
When you have 15 kids, there’s more action, there’s uh, more opportunity for small groups to form. There’re more transient. All these things are beautiful and I love it, but right now. This particular group of eight children is such a good mix. It’s probably helped by the fact that most of them, they’re on their second or third year at Discovery.
Mm-hmm. So they’ve really just developed this internal voice and belief in themselves because they are in the part of the process where they’ve developed those things. I can really. Observe more. I could really support the little nuances that need to be supported. There’s just a freedom of my availability.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where it’s,
Kisha Reid: the more children you have, the harder that becomes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. I think of, you know, with that, with that size and you’re joining them on this, on their life journey. Mm-hmm. Right. In those, those years. Right. And so you see the changes and everyone’s growing together or having these experiences together and you’re able to be that present with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Kisha Reid: Just beautiful.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kisha Reid: And being available where? When they just need to sit on me, when they just need to, you know, tell me about their grandma’s house or, you know, when the kids come to me with five books under their arms, I’m not. Too busy to have those moments. Mm-hmm. And the same thing went when I had 20 children.
I just made it a point to make that the most important thing. And part of that comes from not having this arbitrary schedule that comes from, you know, what was given to me or what was pre-planned, kind of divorcing myself from more typical preschool. Things. Mm-hmm. The normal preschool, uh,
Rusty Keeler: prescribed Stan.
Yes. You know, ways of doing things Yes. Or the norms or that kind of thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve always felt like you found your own path through it all and, and in inspirations from different, you know, there’s, yes. You know, this is, you know, there’s a certain genre right. Of mm-hmm. Of saying yes and supporting that and, and not worrying about those same kind of norms.
But what, what would you say your, your philosophy is then? What is what, what is the thread that has been. Kind of going throughout the different
Kisha Reid: chapter discovery. I think when I moved to this new location and I changed the name to Discovery Natural Learning, I think it’s because I’m really leaning on what we’re naturally born to do and what is just like inside of us when we created.
Mm-hmm. So I, I think my philosophy is. Not fighting that and you know, providing a place for that to rest and grow and develop and be nurtured. And that, that is where I’m at right now.
Rusty Keeler: Ah, so, so like supporting the natural way of being?
Kisha Reid: Yes. Literally. Yes. Ah, supporting that in children, but also I feel like if even adults, if, if, if we really.
Sit with that. Hmm. Sit with ourself and our, our innermost self and try to get to know that it could change our own lives. It can change humanity. It’ll definitely change the way that we work with young children. So I just love that this work is ever changing and ever growing, and I need that. Like I am a DHD girl.
Mm-hmm. Like I need the growth and the process and the progress, and it’s just so fulfilling in that way.
Rusty Keeler: Well, I love that it’s. You’re at a retreat center. Mm-hmm. I know. I So, you’re so right. But, but you know, I feel like, you know, early childhood centers and settings that are really in tune. They, they are retreat centers.
Exactly. You know, they are, and especially with this kind of, you know, your kind of philosophy and so many people’s, you know, listeners’ philosophies of like, wait, we are, we’re kind of hold, trying to hold back the world a bit. Mm-hmm. So that children, we can nurture that and support that, that inner self, that inner growth of, of the child a retreat.
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Kisha Reid: I love that. I love that. And, and part of. Me moving into different types of locations. I was like, all right, you gotta put your money where your mouth is because you said anybody can do this and you can do it anywhere. And I am a true believer that any, any program can allow children to have authentic childhoods.
It doesn’t matter where you’re located. Doesn’t matter if you have a building or if you’re all outside. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a church or if you’re in a home. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a old school building or wherever. I think that it is not the building. It is, it is a mindset and it is an environment that surpasses the walls.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love that. So how can people, you know, if people feel like, well, I don’t, I’m not on a 300 acre retreat center, or I’m not, I don’t have a giant yard or what. Mm-hmm. But what, how, what, what is it in their hearts or what’s the mindset or what are small ways that people can start to, I don’t know, head in that direction that they probably will resonate with, but, but what we talked about before, about like the, the.
Preschool programming or what we think we’re supposed to be. How can people start stepping or feel more confident to step going this directions?
Kisha Reid: I think what I’ve always tried to do is when uh, uh, let’s say I hire a new teacher and they come and they’ve either never worked with children or they’ve only worked in traditional programs.
The first thing that I ask them to do is. Do nothing. Just sit and observe children.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kisha Reid: Because when they say a picture is a thousand words. Well, watching children and just watching them from a, from and, and even everyone’s gonna come with their own lens, right? If you’ve never experienced it, you’re gonna come with your own lens.
You might be watching children and thinking, oh my goodness, I can’t believe they’re doing that. Oh, when’s she gonna cut her grass? All those things you’re thinking, I want you to just watch children and, and hear those thoughts. And then after we, after I have them watch children and hear those thoughts, we discuss that after.
So we can start to unpack those thoughts. Mm-hmm. And find the roots like, well, and sometimes you can dispel your own thoughts, like he’s gonna fall and then at the end of an hour of watching the child do it, you are like, well, he didn’t fall. Whoa, let me hone into his fingers. Look at those grips. He’s really holding on.
He’s looking at where his hand goes. So you kind of work with the adult on really seeing what’s in front of them and starting to like tamp down the make believe, which is like that voice that tells us all these things that are gonna happen. Yeah. That you know, the more you observe children, you see that they don’t happen, it kind of shifts the balance.
Yeah. So I think before you, you really do anything outside of yourself, it’s the self-work part. Um, and that starts for me with observing children, looking at photos, seeing it, seeing it in action really helps people to believe, you know, seeing is believing they say so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like to do, I,
Kisha Reid: I, I think starting there, but if, if you’re in a program right now and you’re working with children and you’re thinking, Hmm, this sounds interesting to me.
I think I wanna try this. I just say, tomorrow when you go to work or when the children come to your home, you plan to take. 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 15 minutes to just sit back and observe. And sometimes I give them the task of just writing down everything you see, not what you’re thinking, that’s, you keep that in your head, but write down just what you see, like, like exactly what you see.
And then when you go back and read that and look at that and think about that and talk about that, it really, it’s just this, this reflective. Exercise.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kisha Reid: And that shifts you.
Rusty Keeler: I think it’s amazing that that difference between what we see or, or what, what we think we see because we were, we’re here in the, in the back of our minds, all the, they’ll poke their eye out, they’re gonna fall, they’re gonna hurt themselves and all that stuff.
But if you give the adults the freedom. To not have to react or act.
Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: And then to, and then noticing too. I mean, that’s, I feel like so much of this is more like psychology for the adults. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, what, what is bubbling up? I mean, then it’s a whole other exercise to think, well, why do you think that?
Or why? Mm-hmm. Why is that coming up? Well, okay, how about for the child then when. When adults are acting more in this way where they are support, observing, supporting, seeing what is right there. Mm-hmm. What, what kind of freedom, what kind of environment is created, how is that beneficial for the children
Kisha Reid: before the physical environment?
There’s this shift, this beautiful magical shift. Within the soul, the heart, the mind of the child, like they start to believe this belief flares up in them, that they’re capable. Like I can do things, I can struggle. I can get over it. I can feel an emotion. I can work through it. I can fall, I can get back up again.
I can pull myself up. There is something so powerful about believing in yourself and no one outside of yourself can do that for you. We can set the conditions. We can give the permissions, we can allow them to explore the experiences that make that happen. But there’s nothing that we can do outside of them to create this sort of belief outside of them having these type of experiences.
And I just, one of the things I’m writing about right now in my newsletter to my parents is just about that shift. To capability that shift when you believe, and I’m looking through my pictures from last week and I’m looking at children who went from, I can’t, I can’t help me, help me, help me. To watching them carrying stacks of lumber, like, oh, tongue sticking out, working hard, dropping it down on the bike, going back and getting more.
And this, this. Robust belief in themselves, and that spills over to everything that spills over to learning, academic learning. It spills over to engagement with other people in life. It spills over to everything like every corner of your life. If you have that positive self image and that belief in yourself.
There’s no stopping you, so. Mm-hmm. It just festers inside of them and boils and bubbles over. And right now I’m seeing it in so many of my children that it’s boiling and bubbling over. I was watched a little girl the other day and I remember, uh, a couple weeks ago, the kids started taking a little tire and putting it down the slide, and one of the dads came to pick up and he almost lost his mind when he watched his daughter.
Pick up the tire and hold it and he’s like, wait a minute, lemme hold how that’s pretty heavy. Like he couldn’t believe that she could do it.
Mm-hmm. And it’s because in their life he’s never experienced her doing it, you know? Mm-hmm. She’s never gotten a message from him. She needs to, because in our, in our heads we see children and we think, you know, they need us to do all these things, and it’s great to be codependent when you need to be codependent, but it’s also so wonderfully freeing to be independent when your body needs to try something yourself.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It was just beautiful
Kisha Reid: to see him see her in that way.
Rusty Keeler: Wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then for those children to be feel capable. Mm-hmm. And, and then as you said, as they move on in life, you know, I feel like that, for me, I feel like that is probably one of the big foundations of early childhood education is that.
Just finding that children, finding that center, finding in tune being, being, you know, having that confidence, learning about themselves and, and learning. I can do it or I can fall and I, and I can get back up or I can make a choice. You know, when you think about the 3-year-old being with five-year-olds doing wild stuff and the three-year-old might be, I’m not quite ready.
Yeah. But you know, then they become five year olds and, and then on and on mm-hmm. In, in life. And versus, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s such an interesting thing because adults who are with children and then have that nervousness of, of what’s gonna happen and they stop. It’s good intention, right? They then they might think their job is to protect and, you know mm-hmm.
Stop bad things from happening. Mm-hmm. And so they, they react and yet. You know, really for children’s long-term life. Yeah. There’s that natural spirit and flow. We want them to develop that kind of stuff.
Kisha Reid: Yeah. They, they will self assess in so many instances. I mean, I’m not saying let them go and close your eyes and don’t, and just they’ll be okay.
No. Yeah. You do need to watch, you do need to be available. Yeah. You do need to show them the edge of something sometimes. Yeah. Because we are experienced in this world in ways that they’re not, but. It’s, it’s so powerful for them to, when it’s safe, find the edge.
Yeah. And realize that’s the edge. And next time don’t go to it.
You know what I mean? I mean like, yeah. Yeah. That’s part of the, it’s part of the learning fall down and get back up again. So, and it’s also it very important for a child to. Try something fail, like to not succeed every time. Mm-hmm. To experience the hunger that grows inside of you when you really wanna do something like, and it’s hard.
It’s so hard for parents sometimes. Like I have a little guy who really wanted to get to the top of the do, and his mom really wanted to put on the top of the dome because he really wanted to, and in all his experience. She’d do it, but because they’re standing at discovery, she can’t. So it’s this balance of.
Her wanting to really make that happen for him and him needing to experience the entire process it takes to get up there. Mm-hmm.
Kisha Reid: But man, when he got up there, he was so proud of himself and his body now understands how to do it. Mm-hmm. It’s that memory that your body holds, right. Of how to do it because he practiced again and again, and again and again.
So he’s not gonna fall.
Speaker 3: Because
Kisha Reid: his body, his muscles, his mind has practiced the movements that needed to get up there a hundred times. And each time he’s developing a, a larger belief in himself, a larger understanding that, you know what? I failed. I’m gonna come back and do it again. But if someone always does it for you, you don’t start to develop that.
And then that’s gonna show up in college. You’re gonna fail and you’re gonna be lose your mind. You’re not gonna know how to come back from failure. And that is a big part of what we’re doing here as well.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Going through real life experiences. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and yeah. The idea of failing sometimes, but they’re, they’re doing it in a safe environment with Yeah.
Loving adults Yes. That are there as, as guides, as support. Mm-hmm. I mean, that’s what more could you ask for?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: Life. And you know, it’s, uh, it’s interesting also thinking again about that retreat center metaphor, but also the reality of it, of like, I mean, here it is a retreat center. Like you are the, you are the guides as they’re voyaging in life and you are there to support them and to pick them up and to, you know, cheer them on or show them that edge.
And if people are doing, you know, it’s a place where. People go on retreat. And the same thing if you’re lucky enough to have a guide that’s kind of, you know, giving you some things to think about or showing you the edge and you, you wanna keep going and mm-hmm. Yeah. Exploring and, yeah. So, so that’s really beautiful.
Okay, so let me ask then the, the, the big question that is often on people’s minds. I mean, so we we’re talking about the beauty of it and why and how that is so important, and we see that now people who see pictures of your place or even this idea of from going up slides and, and, and these kind of riskier things.
And adults having these ideas, preconceived ideas in the back, their minds. The question of course is licensing. Mm-hmm. People think, oh, I love to do that kind of stuff, but you know, when a licenser walks in here and sees mm-hmm. The grass tall or, you know mm-hmm. Um, all these loose boards and kids with tires on, on slides.
Mm-hmm. How, what has been your approach and how do you have relationships with licensing to see, see it through?
Kisha Reid: I’ve been doing this this way for myself for 15 years or so now. Mm-hmm. Half my career and I’ve never once had a licensing person and I, I could just be lucky, but I really think it has more.
I’ve never once had a licensing person question or say anything about any risk or anything going on. The only story I have involved something that was so not risky. Which, uh, was children, uh, skirting across the edge of the fence. So they would put their hands on the top rung and their feet on the bottom rung, and they were, they would skirt across and it was like a r of passage.
And my specialist was there inspecting and she’s, you know, going, talking to me and asking questions and doing the things that she does. And she looks over and she goes, oh, they’re gonna have to get down. And I just said, why? That’s my magic word. Why? And she said, well, they could fall. And I said, well, it’s two feet off the ground.
I think they’ll be okay. Uh, and I said, besides, it’s a rite of passage. And by the time they get up there and they can do it, they are good at it. And she’s like, well, you know, she held onto, they could fall. And I kept asking her. Yes, they could fall. And then what? Like what’s the big deal? So because I kept asking and kind of pushing back softly and respectfully, but pushing back, she said, well, let me ask my supervisor, because I also know the rules.
That’s a part of it. We need to be well versed on what the actual rules are because your licensing specialist is gonna interpret things, how they interpret things through their own lens, and those aren’t the rules. So, and, and they’re not our boss. That’s another thing. I feel like, uh, for so long I have worked at other programs where it was, it was made to seem like licensing was our boss.
Our boss. They’re not.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Huh.
Kisha Reid: So they, they could be a great partner. They could be a great partner. Uhhuh. It’s a great relationship to have. Anyway, her supervisor said it was fine. But anyway, the part of the journey with licensing specialists is for them to understand what you’re doing here. And when they hear the intention behind it and they see the passion that you’re working with.
In my experience, I can’t speak to everybody’s licensing specialist ’cause I’ve heard some stories. Yeah. And I don’t know how to help them. But in my experience, I lead with my passion. I lead with my intention. I lead with the science and the why. So I’m asking them why, but I’m telling them my why at the same time.
Okay. And then they don’t question me because they, I have had a specialist say to me, between you and me, this is where I would put my kids. And they said, because one, the children are happy, they’re engaged, they’re challenged, but, but most, first and foremost to them is there is intention behind what you’re doing.
Like this is, this is, mm-hmm. This is. Important. So if you can convey that information, I think when we act timid or shy or scared or like they’re our bosses, they’re, that’s where, you know, that’s what we’re telling them. Their relationship is with us. Yeah. But when we act confident and, and we question and we inform politely, respectfully, but inform, I think something shifts.
So my one specialist when she retired, and I can’t stand when they retire because you never know who you’re gonna get next and if they’re gonna understand this.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. But
Kisha Reid: she retired. Right.
Rusty Keeler: You’ve been working with these people to understand. Yes. I know. I know.
Kisha Reid: I’ve also been really lucky to get people who kind of seem like they get it a little bit.
But she was retiring and I was like, no, don’t go. And she said, well, um, everybody in the office knows discovery’s different. So Uhhuh, I think you just gotta establish yourself as you’re different.
Rusty Keeler: Well, it also sounds like you. Yeah. Okay. And by doing that, it sounds like you are taking, you, you take an active role mm-hmm.
In those, when they come, uh, you’re not passive just watching them walk around and look at things and check things On the clipboard, you’re very active.
Kisha Reid: Mm-hmm. I’m there. I’m talking to them. I am, when they’re looking at one thing, I’m talking to them about why the other thing’s happening, and also that relationship starts before the, they first come.
Like when you’re opening the program, you’re discussing, you’re sending paperwork, you’re discussing, you know, the differences. You’re discuss. Discussing your nuances. You are inviting them to look at your website, you’re, you’re just establishing a relationship like anything else. I think the relationship that you have with your licensing specialist is important.
Mm-hmm. And I just. If I can’t do this work this way, then I can’t do this work. So that, I think that helps drive me too.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. ’cause it’s like this way
Kisha Reid: or no way.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you, you just, you let the passion come out. Mm-hmm. And the philosophy come out and, and the wise’s And
Kisha Reid: one other thing that I, I, I think that I do, and I do it intentionally, is cross my t’s and.my, i’s because they need to see that this is a safe environment.
This is a, a challenging environment. This is a safe environment.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Kisha Reid: So I go above and beyond with letting that be shown or known or expressing that. So if I’m talking about children climbing on things, I’m talking about their core and why it’s important that they’re barefoot and, you know, I, I am making sure that they understand that a lot of this is coming from a place of safety.
So that I think when your mindset is that someone’s flippant. They’re, oh, they’re just letting their grass grow ’cause they don’t care. Or they have these loose parts because it, you know, this junk materials is because like you need to shift their mindset from thinking that this is because you don’t care.
Yeah. And because it’s a lack of intention to understanding, it’s such a deep. Intentional practice and then it shifts everything.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in some ways you are, you’re helping them do their job. Mm-hmm. And, and then feeling confident about saying, oh, because you’re saying this is, this is all intentional.
This is an accidental, but when they come in, they’ve seen all these centers and programs and people’s, you know, they don’t know. Mm-hmm. Something could. Be have tall grass growing and junk, loose stuff all over the place. Mm-hmm. And they have to make a judgment. Right? Yeah. And so they, they’ve never seen
Kisha Reid: it.
Their first judgment is, what in the heck is going on here?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. That clipboard out and start uhhuh. So the difference then is the, the adult, the you, the the person, the director, the, the, the educator, the provider. Do they know what they’re doing? Is this intentional or why? Yeah. And, and so not only the philosophy and the why, but the experiences and then also like the supervising, how are you mm-hmm.
Keeping it safe. And they were like, oh, okay. This person, you know, I can just imagine you just like coming right at them with all this info and they’re like, okay, this person is, this is Uhhuh on purpose. Okay. We trust you.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and at the same time, you know, for a lot of people, you know, that can be very intimidating having, you know, the licenser, you know, regulators come in and,
Kisha Reid: oh, don’t get me wrong, when they show up, I’m shaking the first few minutes.
I’m like, they’re here, Uhhuh and I, and it’s the initial freak out. But
Rusty Keeler: yeah,
Kisha Reid: then I kind of like, okay, get yourself together, girl. You got a job to do here, Uhhuh.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. You know, for so many people in the early childhood world, that’s not why they got into it. You know, they want, yes. The work is with the children and all that.
Mm-hmm. You know, but at the same time, I always say like, we adults have to do the boring stuff. Yeah. Or the challenging stuff. Maybe that’s the most challenging thing. So that again, that retreat, so we can create the retreat area center for children to have the authentic experience of their life. Yeah. So that’s part of it, you know, holding back, you know.
Yeah. Holding, yes.
Kisha Reid: The
Rusty Keeler: world. The world that would write things up. Well, Kisha Reid, thank you so much. Thank you. I
Kisha Reid: loved it. That was wonderful. Yay,
Rusty Keeler: yay, yay. All right. All right. Well
Kisha Reid: thank you so much, Wes. I loved it.
Rusty Keeler: Thanks, Kisha Reid. Bye-Bye.
Rusty Keeler: All right. Thanks for listening. Do you have a comment or a question? Email me. At Play Nature podcast@gmail.com. You know, I like talking about this stuff and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide, fun stuff in there.
And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard or loose parts or saying yes to risky play, my favorite motto is dream big, start small and never stop. Oh yeah. Woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there.
