Erik Herman: So now having been, you know, in the formal setting and watching students come up through that system, from my teacher role and now seeing from the other perspective in a more informal role, it’s just blatantly obvious to me that there are kids who, if all they’re getting is the formal system, uh, of schooling, then there are going to be innovators whose.
Passions are squashed and stifled, and they don’t have an avenue for it.
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen.
Hi. Hey, rusty. Hey, Eric. Good to see you. Good to see you too. Yeah. So here we are. We’re, we’re both in Ithaca.
Erik Herman: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: I’m, you’re on that side of town. I’m on this side of town.
Erik Herman: Yeah, we’re doing kind of the same thing in slightly different places. Yes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. So I’m, I’m super excited to chat today. We’ve been talking about it for a while and it’s kind of fun because we, you know.
I, I know we share a lot of like passion philosophies and kinda spirit of, you know, childhood and play and learning and growing and, you know, kind of alternative things in that direction. But we haven’t, we haven’t really collaborated, but we, I’ve always been like, oh, that guy’s doing awesome stuff. I’ve, I’ve, you know, he, you’ve inspired me from afar.
Erik Herman: Yeah, you too. You too. I’ve, I’ve got the same feeling about you. We’re, we’re doing kind of similar work in. In a very highly overlapping domains.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Well, you know, so let’s see. There’s so many things I wanna jump into, but I’m, how about, I’ll start with your bio and then, and then maybe I wanna just kind of tell listeners about free science, just kind of through the new lens that I have with my son.
Cool. Coming
Erik Herman: there? Yeah. That sounds great. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. So, uh, our guest here is Eric Herman. And Eric’s lifelong passion has been to share the fun. Beauty and utility of physics to all using readily available materials, especially junk. He creates interactive exhibits and demonstrations in a physics bus and facilitates hands-on tinkering experiences.
At the Free Science Workshop. Eric co-founded three Nonprofits, the Physics Factory. Free Science Inc. And the Global Alliance for Community Science Workshops all dedicated to pro to promoting joy in science.
Erik Herman: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: And it looks like you’re sitting at the free science workshop right now.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, a playground of sorts. Anytime of day, whether kids are in here or not, I can, I can, uh, find peace here. Peace and tinkering. Yes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And, uh, I’d say I, I’m gonna paint a picture and you can paint a picture too, but So, so my 10-year-old son, Levi, now is a free science workshop. Hound. He is, he is there as much as possible.
You know, I’ve always loved Free Science Workshop and of course Physics bus. You know, I, we will hear about it, but the free science workshop always inspired me, kind of, because I feel like it’s almost like a, it’s like a cousin to the adventure playground where there is, children are free, free, free to do what they want to do.
It’s free, it doesn’t cost money, and they’re free to come and go as they please. That’s some of the tenets of like the adventure playgrounds in, in Europe where you know they’re in neighborhoods and people stroll up and kids, you know, kids go and they can do whatever want they want and there are also.
Adults, supportive adults that are creative and care about kids, but also care about that freedom and kind of to support their growth. And then free science workshop is this mad wild place with so many materials and tools and, you know, there’s animals and to tend and visit and, you know, and these awesome adult guides, yourself included, that are there to, to support children in, in like whatever they wanna do.
Whatever they wanna make.
Erik Herman: Yeah, that’s the idea. I mean the, the, the free choice piece is such an important part. I had been in, um, in education, formal education, middle and high school, physical science and physics. Uh, and then ultimately, uh, up at the college, Cornell University there in the physics department for a few years.
And the, when you, when you toggle between a free choice environment where people are there ’cause they wanna be there at that, at that very moment, they chose to. Walk into that space and get involved versus a more formal environment where there’s all these structures around it and we’re in certain roles.
Uh, it’s, it’s like night and day and, and my happy place is in the informal space.
Rusty Keeler: Where anything could happen or you don’t know what’s gonna happen. Yeah,
Erik Herman: yeah. That’s right. That’s right. You know, so someone like Levi, in many ways, the, the free science workshop is a place where a tinker at heart, someone who really, who has ideas and wants to explore and could spend, you know, I, I, there have many times been where he didn’t wanna leave and he had to go for some reason.
And, and that’s the, you know, creating a space for that is what I had set out to do all along. When I discovered community science workshops were an actual thing, um, I never looked back. You know, we, we need a place for. Kids to be able to explore, uh, to their heart’s delight, you know, without many boundaries, you know, aside from safety and, you know, making too big of a mess.
Um, yeah. Uh, you know, pretty much that’s, that’s the goal here. Um, I was lucky enough to have that growing up as a kid. We, uh, my parents bought a house that had a barn out in the back. I don’t think they wanted a barn or needed a barn, but. That barn was full of junk. Uh, the sale of the house included, you know, a discount if we would accept all the junk that was in that barn.
And so we did. And you know, so here I was lucky enough to have that. And when I got older and realized that many kids don’t have that place, it’s not in our school. It’s more and more hopefully with your work, it’s happening in, in playgrounds. But to have a place actually with, with tools and with a roof over, over top, uh, was something, you know, that really I think needs to be in every neighborhood around the world.
World.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. It because if you don’t have that, you know, you’re, there’s a limitation that you don’t even know of children, you know, they don’t have that stuff. But to, to have a place where anything’s possible, like there’s adults that are looking at this, all right, you got an idea? Let’s, let’s see how it, it’s gonna happen.
Or, or the adults are just standing back and just providing the materials. So, yeah.
Erik Herman: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I’ve been doing some research. I’m not by any means, you know, a, a a, a cultural anthropologist, but, you know, just recently I’ve been really intrigued by, you know, that I, I don’t believe this is a new idea.
Um, and. The little bit of evidence I do have so far from the little bit of research I’ve been doing, um, looking back at the, you know, dawn of human history and what, what do the artifacts look like? Um, it does appear to be true that, um, that we. We’re communal tinkerers. Um, we, we, um, sharpened our arrowheads, uh, not all isolated, alone and in our different corners of, you know, the camp.
If you were making pottery, it makes sense to have a kiln, one kiln, not, you know, as many kilns as there are. Adults. So this idea of communal, uh, working together with your hands, whether it’s for a utilitarian purpose, um, you know, I’m building something to help me do a thing that I’m trying to do, or a creative purpose, you know, whether it’s for something just.
That’s fun to play with or is beautiful. Um, you know, whether you’re creating for any of those reasons, um, to have a place to do it in is, is, is definitely, uh, I think good for the human spirit.
Rusty Keeler: I love that idea of us as social creatures and being together Yeah. In our, in our ideas and yeah, working on stuff and seeing what other people are working on and taking it higher.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I, and I definitely appreciate too, um, the, the, the solitary piece when you are just off in your corner doing your own thing, but the ability to, you know, to have somebody walk by and, and be like, oh, I, I, you know. That thing you’re working on. Uh, I, I did something like that once and I used, you know, a piece of baling wire to hook those two pieces together.
Like, that’s super useful, you know, just to have that, uh, that innovative piece where you’ve got different perspectives and people able to weigh in, um, on, on what you’re working on. It, it, it just makes this wonderful soup of, of ideas come forth.
Rusty Keeler: I love it. Yeah. Gosh, it’s an interesting thinking about like the human brain and kind of creativity and always trying to innovate.
Innovate and think, you know, since the dawn of dawn of time, as you’re saying and before that, and the idea of that our minds being creative, but the idea of like together and, and social aspect of it and yeah, and, and as a species, that’s how we do grow, innovate. Create.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. And, and negotiate relationships.
You know, that’s, that’s another piece of it. Um, also the age, um, you know, another big difference from more formal settings is, um, is that we have kids of all different ages and adults of all different generations, um, mingling together and, um. And just that cross pollinization of, uh, you know, all these different life experiences.
Um, it’s, you know, even, even if the thing you’re working on ends up not working, um, you know, it’s just the experience of being in that space and, and sharing that with others is, is really magical
Rusty Keeler: and there’s always something going on.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, you know, I’ve, I always, you know, feel compelled to clean up and organize around here.
Um, and, and then inevitably in a couple days, it’s, it’s all, you know, the table surfaces are all covered. Again, I’m looking at it right now and, uh, you know, I’ve thought about making it maybe an art installation, uh, having just a GoPro trained on. One table over the course of a month because it’s just really like, you know, I, I would never imagine when I clean the table surface what it might look like in another few days.
The, the various things that are. It’s always something new. It really is. It’s like a, it’s like, it’s almost like a garden where you can’t get rid of the weeds, but then the weeds are actually kind of neat on their own, so,
Rusty Keeler: yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, it’s, we’ve been told that our house looks like the free science workshop, which in one sense is like, I’m like, yeah, that’s what we’re going for.
And in another sense they’re like, oh my gosh, that means. Everything looks crazy to this person. There’s wild and materials everywhere, and you know, that’s Levi, but it’s funny. Uh, so we have a, like a, a breakfast nook, like a, I don’t know, like a counter. They, the kids sit at and eat their breakfast, but Levi loves having his creations on there and, and he’s making stuff on there.
And so it was just, it’s always so crazy just like that. So I, I’ve been doing a, uh, stop motion. Like film, and so I’ll just be spinning around it. I’ll just do click, click, click of whatever day it is. There’s, you know, it’s random. Yeah. And so I have this thing where it’s just like, you’re just rotating around and it’s all changing all the time and Wow.
What’s there? And then every once in a while it’s clean. Yeah. It’s like, oh wow, look at that. And then boom. Just more creations and madness.
Erik Herman: Yeah. It’s funny, I, I, um, when I need to get like. Work done at a computer, I have to pretty much go to a coffee shop so that I can start at a clean table and end with a clean table.
That’s where I can actually focus on the, you know, the clerical side, my admin side of my brain. Yeah, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Right, right. It’s like the free science workshop is like the, was it the. Right. Yeah. And a right brain explosion.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But there, you know, the opposite is true. Uh, when I spend the whole day doing spreadsheets or whatever it is, um, writing, you know, writing up grant applications and such, I do have to give myself a break at some point.
I, my, my brain is like so cluttered with that stuff that. I have to pop over to the free science workshop and tinker a bit, or I, I feel crappy at the end of the day if I haven’t given myself that time in the 3D world, you know that I think we, our brains all evolved to. To operate in a three dimensional world in nature, using our hands and feeling textures, hearing sounds, et cetera.
So, so yeah, it’s, I do, I really do believe I’m not, I’m not speaking in hyperbole when I say that. I do believe that this kind of work is, uh, is important to, um, to a healthy mind.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, a healthy mind, heart, spirit. All of it. And yeah, if you think about kids that are, you know, sitting in desks all day and you know, kind of doing what they’re, you know, they’re assigned to do and you know, hopefully finding some windows of inspiration through that.
But still, that’s a lot of sitting and, you know, taking in and then to be able to have a place of freedom where it can almost go the other direction. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, yeah. Yeah. And, and I liked you how you said the 3D world.
Erik Herman: Yeah. You know, and I, it’s funny ’cause I’ve been using that expression for a while to kind of.
You know, to kind of establish that I’m not talking about the, the world in the screen, but you know, more and more I find that, you know, really techie people, people that are really into, into like gaming and such, um, or virtual reality or augmented reality. Like they need a further distinction. ’cause they’re like, oh, I work in 3D too.
I’m like, no, that’s not the kind of 3D I’m talking about.
Rusty Keeler: Yes, yes. Not, not the metaverse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I feel like that’s part of what my mission is of like yes. Outdoors, you know, getting kids in that, in that world of like, yes, let’s just be around the, the elements and the seasons and mud and you know, what’s happening and the change and growth and gardens and you know, that kind of stuff to have that.
Also in them, you know, since the dawn of time we’ve, we’ve humans have, have had that, and that’s part of us. Yeah. And, and so yeah, they need that. So it’s that similarity. You know, when I go into the free science workshop, I just like, oh, I just breathe. Exhale of like, oh, it just feels so. I don’t know. It’s maybe it’s tapping some deep thing.
Yeah. I just feel so relieved.
Erik Herman: Yeah. You know, I’ve thought about the, the workshop Community science workshops, you know, so, so we are one of, uh, eight community science workshops that I know of. I am looking for more if, if anybody knows of, of a space like this. Um, it, it’s kind of, uh. It’s different from a makerspace in, in some aspects.
One of those aspects is, um, the concentration on the K 12 piece, that that’s the priority in a, in a community science workshop. Um, another piece is the, uh, social justice aspect that, uh, that this community science workshops are always situated. In neighborhoods in the walking path of kids, especially, you know, if they, if it’s like we’re in, uh, section eight housing development also, uh, the, we deemphasize we’re not against having 3D printer or a laser cutter.
It’s uh. You know, we’re, we’re techie kind of people. You know, the, the people that work here, we’re not luddites by any means, but we really want the kids to be the 3D printers, uh, and the laser cutters. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, getting their hands in it. Uh, we, it, it, it’s just, it is just so much of our lives, uh, are and will be to, to greater degrees.
Um. In a space where we’re, where we’re at a screen, I mean, so much of our lives, you know, that’s the ecosystem that we find ourselves existing in. Um, and all the great things that, that comes with, you know, connecting with, with people far and abroad and, you know, even something like this right here is made possible because we have, we have these technologies, but, but there really does need to be this other aspect, um, of our lives where, where we really can.
Be working with our hands and, you know, digging our fingers into some soil or whatever. We really see community science workshop as, uh, nature. That’s just where we crammed as much of nature into one room as possible, basically. So, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah. And it continues and, and it evolves. And it grows and changes.
Na yeah. Like its own abstract, natural process.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Huh. So how did the idea gel for you, where, you know, these are some deep, deep thoughts and feelings about it, but, yeah.
Erik Herman: Yeah. You know, I, I, I spoke a little bit about the, uh. That, that when I was young, you know, I had that barn to tinker and so that’s, that’s really where it started.
Um, after school I would go in and just lose myself to whatever project it was. Then during, during my whole K 12 existence, my friends kind of considered me a science guy. Then yet in the classroom, you know, my science scores weren’t that great. So, you know, so I would say even up through my undergraduate degree, that was the case.
That the formal side of science and then this informal side, there was this, you know, this kind of disconnect. What, how could I be such a, how could I have my identity so defined as. A science person, somebody who thinks in it, you know, thinks about the science of something and, and builds things that involve science and engineering.
But I would say where the real switch happened, where I, you know, decided my life path here with a career that has. That has so much to do with community science workshops. Was that when I did make it through college and, and did get certified to teach physical science and, and physics at the, uh, secondary level.
I was eight years in a classroom and the stuff that was happening. After school when the bell rang, my doors would still be open to the students. I would be in there finally getting to work on the projects. You know, a lot of times it was demonstrations and exhibits that I wanted to then show my students during, during class.
But you know, the building of those. Experimenting with those phenomena, um, was what I was doing. And, uh, students were finding themselves coming in, working on their own projects. Uh, they thought my stuff was cool and then they wanted us to build. I had a giant junk pile and. In a big corner of my room and sometimes even, uh, with some administrators.
I was at three different schools during that time, but you know, they, they actually allowed me a whole extra space. Uh, that was a workshop space. I was lucky enough to have that. So, um, so trying to make a long story short here, when I realized that formal science was probably not. My, the best career path for me.
I started going to, um, conferences Aztec, A STC conferences and. Talking to people in the hallways, somebody was like, have you heard of community science workshops? ’cause it sure sounds like what you’re describing happens after school in your classroom is exactly like a community science workshop. So I, I contacted some folks out in California that had community science workshops, um, made those connections and then never really looked back.
I started my own. For a few months out there in Tucson before landing a job here at Cornell, moving me across the country. And then it was only a few years into that job at Cornell that I was once again, like, we need to make a community science workshop. And I maintained all those connections with the California folks.
We eventually did found a nonprofit with the help of a longtime Ithaca resident and change maker and community organizer, Claire Fox, who helped start the Ithaca generator. Claire and I were, were the first directors here at the free science workshop. Um, she has now gone on to start two. Community Science workshops in Pittsburgh where she now lives.
Okay. Um, and she’s heavily involved, uh, with the, with the Global Alliance. I mentioned the Global Alliance of Community Science Workshops. She’s on the board there. Yeah. That’s how it all kind of happened for me. And that’s where I got, got here in this place, uh, the free Science workshop. But I will say, um, it is my, it is my big goal to propagate this model around, around the world as much as I can.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. For sure. No, it feels like the kind of thing that, of course, every community, like every kid should, could have the opportunity, the, you know, the choice to be able to come to that, or, I mean, it’s like a neighborhood, like every neighborhood should be. There could be a place where kids can, are free to wander in and see what’s happening and, and,
Erik Herman: yeah.
Yeah, that’s how, that’s how actually, uh, that’s how the Community Science workshops got started out in California, um, in the Mission District in San Francisco. Dan Rin, he started the Mission science workshop. In his garage, kids were just walking. Mm-hmm. Walking in off the street. He, they saw him tinkering.
He spoke Spanish. So, uh, he, you know, quickly made connections and were able to help the kids with their own projects. But that ultimately turned into him having a, a big space in, uh, um, at Mission High School. And, you know, it kind of took off from there. Another one started in Watsonville and you know, that was, that was way back in the nineties.
But, um, but yeah, we’re still today trying to, trying to make sure that people realize that. This is a thing and, uh, and that everybody, everybody can and should have one. I I think it’s even more and more, um, a need as, uh, as I said, you know, we we’re finding ourselves existing more and more in a digital ecosystem.
Rusty Keeler: Absolutely. Yeah. To me it, it. It really reminds me of, like I said, of these adventure playgrounds, and I’m thinking of this one that I visited in London that, that it really reminds me of because it is plopped, you know, and a lot of them are plopped right in the neighborhoods. Mm-hmm. So after school kids just, you know, show up.
I’ve seen this in Denmark too. They ride their bikes and they, and they know that this is a place that they. They can be and they can do what they want. And you know, different groups of kids come or they’re tending animals or they’re, they’re building, you know, their own bunny hutches or building their own, you know, tinkering around.
Yeah. And they can come and go and, and it’s like the, the story, their sense of community. And I know at, at your free science workshop for the kids there, there’s a sense of belonging.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Like,
Rusty Keeler: like this is a place where I belong. And even if I’m not full power tinkering or I’m just looking around, that’s okay too.
Or if I want to like, bring in a computer and have someone try to, you know, problem solve it, you know, or tear it apart or, you know, fix something they, they can try, you know, that’s possible too. But, and, and how people are, and the adults in it too. You all, the way that you work with children. Remind me of the play workers.
At Adventure Playgrounds of like that, that trusting children, supporting children not intervene, you know, not intervening or buttoning in, you know, but still there around the edges in case there’s something, you know, dangerous going on or need, needs, needs help. And at the same time, you’re right there to brainstorm and, and, and help out and, you know, prolong the play, the tinkering, the, the curiosity and.
Yeah. In this day and age when everything’s, people are scheduled or people are in, kids are indoors or they’re separated or they’re only connected through technology, you know, that is, that is a form like kids are, and, and that, that’s a whole other topic of like, oh, well, today children are connecting because they’re connecting on Roblox and, and they’re still are playing and they are talking and they are laughing and they are having their own stories.
But to have like a physical place where they can, they can. Be and breathe in, in the same room and and be there is vital.
Erik Herman: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The role we, we often play around here is the adults in the room are, are kind of just bigger, bigger kids. And, uh, we’re often working on our own projects, but it’s, it makes it much more organic, the interactions that happen when, um, when there’s no agenda for, from the adult, you know.
If I’m like, I really wanna teach this kid how a circuit works or something like that, it, it does change the vibe. So as much as possible, um, the way we usually impart any kind of. Advice like that is similar to how, you know, you might talk with your neighbor if, if, you know, if you’ve changed a ball, a belt on an alternator and they’re struggling to change their belt on their alternator.
You, you might pop over and they might be like, Hey, have you ever done anything like this before? And, you know, and then, then you help out in a very natural, organic way, the way humans, you know, talk to each other when, when one of them isn’t like on a mission to teach everyone how to change a belt on an alternator.
Mm-hmm. So. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And you all are so natural in it, you know, I know a lot of teachers have to maybe bite their lip of like, oh, it’s, there’s a teaching moment here. But you know, I think you, you do, but you also teach by being enthusiastic about what you’re working on and the place, like everybody there is like cur, the adults are all seem curious and fun loving and yeah, want to experiment and explore and build and.
To have that sense of wonder that that alone, like through osmosis is. Educational and beautiful and
Erik Herman: yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things that sometimes that sometimes happens, it’s, it’s rarer and rarer that this happens, but you know, in the bio we mentioned the physics bus, and that’s been a project of mine now since 2006 meant, you know, there’s been about eight different buses.
I think I, I lose count sometimes, but the physics bus. Then also the free science workshop. Every once in a while, uh, we get an adult who isn’t familiar or it’s unusual that we’re, that, that we have this word, you know, physics or science in, uh, you know, naming the space and the experience. And sometimes the expectation is that we’re gonna start explaining things that the adults are there.
To explain how something works with words, and I have a hard time like on the spot articulating, you know, how, how we approach it different, I guess the, the best way that. Captures it is that I, that I will say try, try not to do it in a snarky way, but, but letting the science speak for itself is, is one of the ways that I, that I put it, if we have the time to dive into the conversation, pointing out the, uh.
You know that, that we do understand physics, even if we don’t have it articulated, uh, with words or symbols. There’s a, um, you know, think about a bicycle for instance. You know, there’s a lot of physics going on and how a bicycle works. In fact, a professor right here at Cornell since the seventies, I think Andy Ruena has been, uh, I think I’m pronouncing his name right.
Uh. Has been studying how bicycles stay up and I think finally, uh, has reduced it to about four pages of quadratic formulas and calculus. And, you know, and yet all of that is actually in our mind, maybe not in a way that we can articulate it with words, but. There is a way in which our minds understand how a bicycle works, or we would, or we would fall right over and crash.
So
Rusty Keeler: it’s interesting.
Erik Herman: Yeah. I think being able to articulate things in words has become such a, such a. An expectation, um, whether it’s words, symbols, pictures, and I guess with a physics bus and with the free science workshop, the idea is that, uh, that there are other ways you can understand things, um, that involve the feelings, the textures and, and just the intuitions.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like. We are physical beings in a physical world and with physical phenomena, and I think that idea of it science speaking for itself, or the physics speaking for itself, like for children to be observing and watching what’s going on and the connections like. We don’t know what’s all the connections that are happening in inside.
And I always feel like the adult role, you know, well-meaning, wants to teach or, or say the one thing that they think it is to try to teach something, but that could be so limited compared to like the infinite connections that are happening and Yeah, in, in inside the child when they’re watching or participating in, in the phenomena.
Erik Herman: Yeah, totally. And it, you know, it can actually be intrusive. You know, it can actually kind of take away from whatever experience was, you know, was being felt or, right, right, right.
Rusty Keeler: Like, butt out, butt out. We, we don’t know the, we don’t need the name of the phenomena, whatever.
Erik Herman: Have you ever sat next to somebody or watching a great movie and then they keep turning to you and telling, telling you what they think is going on or.
Right, right. I’m trying to enjoy the movie. Right. So, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Uh, that’s it. Yeah. So kids are like, they’re trying to enjoy the movie.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. So many times, uh, you know, especially with, so we do, we do with the physics bus, most of our traffic through the bus is, uh, is K through 12 and, and it centers around fifth grade.
I would say that’s our most popular third to fifth grade is, is probably we get. Probably 7,500 to 10,000 kids in a year. But then we do less often public events, whether it’s grassroots or whether it’s streets alive or something like that. And, and when that happens, the parents are standing by and, and it’s such a contrast sometimes.
From what, what the kids had been experiencing when they were on their own and free to explore and not with mom or dad watching over their shoulder. We, we have seen, you know, instances where, you know, a kid is watching a, a magnet fall through an aluminum pipe and it, you know, it, it looks like it’s going through molasses and you know that, you know that there’s no molasses in there.
You can see the magnet clearly, but it’s, it’s like falling in slow motion and. Um, and this one time, you know, this kid is holding it up above their head, like almost like a telescope, and then they’re holding it down and they’re watching it fall and, you know, a good two or three minutes and then dad pops over and, and says.
You know, that’s Lens’s law, that’s making that do that, you know, a lens’s law. Uh, there are these ed currents that are forming inside the, you know, inside the aluminum and they, you know, resist the motion and make an opposing force. And, um, and just the, the sparkle in the kids’ eye suddenly just turned to a cloud.
Rusty Keeler: So, yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Well, it’s funny ’cause it’s like. The, the adults, the well-meaning, right? Or we feel like that’s our role. And, and this goes for like with play, you know, children’s play and, and, and that kind of thing of like the adults kinda stepping back, but they feel like they need to, to, to do those explanations.
But really it’s like, yeah, butt out. I’m having like a million, billion things going on in my, my brain and body and understanding, or I’m understanding about the world or myself, or, yeah. Yeah, that’s, yeah. Yeah.
Erik Herman: Yeah. I think, uh, you might have shared with me a video. Uh, I believe that it was a documentary based in the UK somewhere where it, it did go into like the play workers and how, you know that that younger.
20 something, or even late teens tend to be a really good fit for the supervisors in, you know, in an anarchy playground or whatever, because they, they do just naturally kind of stand back or participate in ways that are more like, you know, like a friend helping than, than an adult. You know, who’s, who’s there to either teach you something or, you know, make sure that.
You know, you follow some kind of rule.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I’ve, I,
Erik Herman: I appreciated that. I really thought, you know, that is, you know, it, it’s just one more reason why having the multi-generational aspect to any community, it, it just seems like it’s more organic, the way knowledge flows among people.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Certainly the younger kids seeing what the older kids are doing. So it’s not segregated by age. Everybody’s mixed in together. Then older people can, you know, older kids can then be mentors and, and help the younger kids along and, and all that goes with that, that, that community. It’s a community.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To have that freedom of, of play, of choice. I feel like that’s where children can find who they are. What their ideas are. They’re making connections, um, without the voice, you know, necessarily the voice of the adult over there saying, oh, this is science, this is math. But that they find, oh, I like this, or I like making these connections.
Or I’m a builder, or, uh, you know, what do I wonder about? What am I grabbing, gravitating to? And it’s that freedom that maybe children don’t have throughout the day, or overscheduled and, you know, or just on the screen where it’s someone else’s creativity that’s beaming at you. To have that time, space, and materials where they’re like, oh, they’re finding out who they are.
And then to have that where the adult can be supporting that. Yeah. And that feels like a direction for their life. Like, oh, I wanna, I, I’m finding myself and I’m gonna keep finding myself. I’m gonna keep following this thread that was able, that had enough room to like, to spark, to, to grow, to, you know, to be.
And yeah, we all need that.
Erik Herman: I think it’s, it’s a, it’s a real key to the cultivation of innovators to have spaces like, you know, in your world and in my world, these spaces where you really can pursue an idea as far and long as you want to. For myself, for me, um, the physics bus that, that I got interested in building exhibits and then eventually, you know, wanted to show ’em off to people.
It taught me so much of what I know today. It makes me, you know, able to function in a professional world that I know how to write a paper is because of the physics bus and trying to make appeals for more physics buses and you know that I can. Do Photoshop or, or video or whatever these, these things all, or, or even spreadsheets, frankly, you know, this was all, these were all necessities and I was motivated to learn these things exactly because I had this, this single focus, you know, for better or worse, you know, my parents for many years.
They’re just coming around to understanding what I, what I see in this wacky, you know, physics bus. Um, but for many years it was like this was a distraction from, you know, a more, you know, a more career I guess, or professional. Lifestyle. Um, but, but I look back and I think, you know, the reason why I think I have any marketable skills is because I had this passion that I kept just driving towards.
So, so now having been, you know, in the formal setting and watching students come up through that system, um, from my teacher role and, and now seeing. From the other perspective in a more informal role. Um, it’s just blatantly obvious to me that, that there are kids who, if, if all they’re getting is the formal system, uh, of schooling, then, then there are gonna to be innovators whose.
Passions are squashed and stifled, and they don’t have an avenue for it. So, um, so, you know, I, I believe that it’s a necessity that we have these places where they can make their ideas come to fruition and keep those things alive. That’s where, that’s where our innovators, that’s where they get nurtured.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Yeah. People talk about, you know, like, what if Michelangelo never had a chisel or never got inter, you know, introduced to marble. Yeah. Would’ve never done that. And it’s kind of like, well, what if these kids never got a hot glue gun in their hand And Yeah. You know, and all the materials and, and so what that, what that leads to, because they have that opportunity.
So what, what advice would you have for, uh, well-meaning adults, either teachers, educators, parents, preschool, all the different ages. How could they in, uh, adapt this or be inspired by it? And, and maybe they’re not starting their own free science community workshops, but how could they blend that into this philosophy or the materials into what they’re already doing if they like this and believe in it?
Erik Herman: Yeah, I would say if you can afford. Space to dedicate a part of your house to, to messes and, and allow that, you know, you can put some guardrails on it and say, you know, once a week we’re gonna clean this place up, or whatever it is. But, um, but I, if, if you have a little bit of space, then you can dedicate to a mess or I would say, uh, if you have a space in your house that you keep tidy for this.
You know, idea that you’re gonna have guests over, and then you notice that, you know, you don’t generally have guests over, so why are you keeping that, why are you keeping that part of the house so tidy for guests, you know, or, or invite guests over to do something like, you know, make candles or whatever the heck.
That’s messy anyway, so yeah, if you have the space that’s, that’s. Probably a good move. You know, investing in hock glue gun is two bucks, I think, you know, at the, at the Dollar store and it can open up pathways, you know, hock glue gun plus the recycle bin and now you have a third grader that who’s gonna be occupied and can make wonderful things.
Um, so yeah. If you can, if you’re in a position to organize with, with your community, with your neighborhood, to, you know, again, if you don’t have the space to afford a messy table for weeks on end, then. Try to organize with some neighbors. Say, look, well, you know, you’ve got that old shack out in the backyard that’s, you know, full of junk that you never touch.
Can we clear that out? Um, that’s actually how it happened here in Ithaca with the free science workshop. If I rewind way back to maybe 2012 or 2013. We started doing it in a friend’s garage. Chris Bell, the second, well he’s a fifth grade teacher, um, at Fall Creek, said, how about you just use my garage? I have it full of all kinds of, you know, shoe boxes and stuff.
Uh, ’cause he uses, he’s always got his eye for. Projects to do with the students in his classroom. So he ends up with a garage full of, you know, shoe boxes. And I was like, well, if I help you make an attic in here, we put all the shoe boxes, then we could clear out a space. Ah, anyway, that’s how it, that’s how it all got started.
But, but back to the point. Yeah. If you can organize with some, um, some neighbors to create a space where the kids can. Can go and tinker together, that’s even better. And you know, and then it’s only one small step from that if you, uh, make it a permanent space and really dedicate it to, uh, to making a community science workshop.
And in which case, get in touch with me because, uh, because we, we have a whole nonprofit whose mission it is to help propagate those, so we’ll, we will support you if you wanna start one of those.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. So awesome. Yeah. My dream is that every community would have a place like this, and also the idea of the indoor and outdoor, you know, if they’re, uh, or the idea that there would be animals with you’re tinkering or you’re building, you know, doing the pallets or you’re building the forts, adventure, playground style outside, and then to come into a space like this too, but that every place could have something like this.
So. What, which, are you just gonna keep doing it? Would you have any other future dreams, expansions, or just help plant more seeds everywhere?
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. I would say my own aspiration getting, I don’t know, in 10 years or now, I’m probably gonna officially retire though. I, I never will fully, I can never fully envision myself not doing this kind of work, but, um, yeah.
Yeah. But I think more and more getting. I’m gonna be focusing on the propagation. I’m gonna be focusing on making sure that others in other communities have the supports that they need. But, but yeah, we’ll keep the physics bus going. I’ll keep building, um, what I call exhibits, uh, a certain, you know, exhibit in the science center world.
Might mean a whole room, you know, can be an exhibit and, uh. We on the physics bus have these, usually it’s like two foot by two foot by two foot made from common materials, you know, microwave or a hair blow dryer. Um. We just gave them a name, ex exhibits, to set them apart.
Rusty Keeler: I love, uh, I love that.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah.
So I’ll keep building ex exhibits.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah. Oh, my guess. Well, you know, I should, before we end, I should just kind of back up and be like, the physics bus, first of all, I, we didn’t just do a full description, but I remember, so the converted school buses. Right. And I mean, the first one was like, I remember seeing it come through town and I don’t know if it was like wrapped in all in tinfoil and it had like, it looked like it was rocket ships off it and rocket things.
And uh, so it was this wild vehicle that was just kind of going down the road and, and going from school to school and event to event. And there was the ex exhibits inside and
Erik Herman: yeah. Right. Yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a real, it’s a real fun thing. I. It, it spread a little bit, you know. Now Claire has a, a bus in Pittsburgh, I think she calls it the science party bus.
Mm-hmm. And she’s got, uh, half of it is, is animals and lizards and snakes and things like that. But yeah, half of it is exhibits. And then out in California now there is a physics bus and another one on the way. So, um, so yeah, these, these are just. Mobile science centers. You can think of it like that, but, uh, but I think.
Really shrunken down and, and made scrappy, like more like a food truck. You know, if you think of a science center or even here, our Ithaca Science Center, um, is more like a, a a a restaurant. Mm-hmm. Uh, we are the food truck. You know, the more scrappy
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Scrappy kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. You know, so in the play work world and Adventure Playgrounds, they all, they, they have play workers, but then they have Play Rangers and they might be more the mobile.
So instead of it having going to the restaurant and play the adventure playground, they go to neighborhood to neighborhood where it might be like, oh, nice. Tuesdays and Thursdays they’re gonna roll up with the play Mobile or Germany, the spiel, mobile Uhhuh. And there they are and they have loose parts and it comes out, spills out into the park or wherever.
But it would be cool. Are there any like, like remote tinkering buses? Like where it’s, it’s even maybe less exhibits and more and just like a tin, a roving tinkering bus.
Erik Herman: Yeah. There’s one out in Salinas, California that’s called the WOW Bus. Uh, wow. Stands for Workshop on Wheels. Nice. And, and it’s great.
It’s an old city bus. And so since it was inherited. By the Salinas folks from the city because the bus was deemed, you know, not worthy of carrying people around anymore. That bus is pretty much restricted to a small, you know, radius because you don’t wanna get, you know, halfway through Oklahoma and break down and you know, in a workshop on wheels.
Um, so I would say I do want to. Make more instances of that, that that’s something we’re even thinking about. The physics bus parking, uh, at a park and getting out some tables. Um, so, so long as, you know, we can stay out of the rougher weather. It is a great idea. These, these popup workshops, it’s something that we, we do wanna develop more.
I would say the ones that do exist are more like Fab Lab type of. Vehicles that have 3D printers and you know, laser cutters and stuff like that. So there, those do exist. I don’t think there is so much of, uh, of the workshop on wheels, the more scrappy kind of, you know, we’re chopping wood, we’re, you know, getting out the hot glue guns.
Um, but we do wanna develop that aspect of it. ’cause I do think it’s a great way to seed new science workshops.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, Eric, thank you so much. I, I, I love it. I love the concept, the philosophy behind it. I love how you found, you know, your life path. Through it, um, and the different stages along the way.
And, and then what a service that you are creating for the children of Ithaca and beyond. And I’m so, I’m so happy that my own family gets to, you know, partake in this. And, you know, the benefactors and love, love that what we benefit from the beauty of, of your vision and, and the tinkering and the saying yes.
Yeah.
Erik Herman: Yeah. Yeah. Well, rusty, you know, it’s been a pleasure and I really appreciate the work you’re doing, getting, getting the word out there about this kinda work. I really appreciate that you had, uh, had time for me to, to get on the show and tell you about my stuff too.
Rusty Keeler: Absolutely. Well, let’s keep rocking it.
Erik Herman: All right. Cool. All right. Thanks a lot. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Alright. Thanks for listening. Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at Play Nature podcast@gmail.com. You know, I like talking about this stuff. And maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide, fun stuff in there.
And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures, and when it comes to adding nature to your yard or loose parts or saying yes to risky play. My favorite motto is dream big, start small, and never stop. Oh yeah. Woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there.
