I always say, oh, like you wanna know how to get around the rules.
You follow the rules. . Everything that you wanna do with nature play and risky play and loose parts can fit within the rules.
Hi, this is Rusty Keeler and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen.
Hello? Hello. Rusty Keeler here, and I’m glad you’re here. Yeah. Back to the Play Nature podcast, and today I’ll be talking about everybody’s favorite subject licensing. Yes, licensing. And if you’re a parent, you don’t have to deal with licensing, but if you’re in the early childhood world or the world of schools or parks or camps, you have to deal with regulators, licensers, people who look at your program and your environment and will pass judgment on it.
And when we’re talking about. All the great stuff that we talk about here. Nature play, loose parts, risky play, all that good stuff for children. When we put that out there in in our spaces, licensers might get nervous, they may have feelings about that, and in turn they may have. Rulings or the ham write-ups that affect how you feel about what you do outside and what you feel like you can actually put, uh, in your outdoor yards.
So licensing, when it comes to risky play, loose parts, nature play is a big part of the puzzle. But it doesn’t have to be a negative thing. We can, we can get licensers on our side. We can show licensers the light, we can show them the way, and it really comes down to showing them that we know what we know what’s we’re talking about.
You know what you’re talking about. You know that nature play is important. Connecting kids to nature, loose parts for collaboration and creativity, and even risky play for children to grow and become resilient. That is important for children’s growth and development. And so it’s really about how we frame that with licensing.
Yeah. So anyway, I know it can be nerve wracking, so I thought we’d, we’d dive into it. Before we do, I’ll just set my scene for you. I am sitting by six Mile Creek, but I’m not outside today. Now it’s a rainy day. I have a little bit of a cold. I’m about to go to Scotland with my son, jj, to do that. Awesome.
Outdoor nursery study tour in the Highlands. So I thought I’d just take it easy. You know, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m maybe not sitting out outside in the rain. Uh, might be a good idea to not do that. So, but here I am and I am lucky enough in Ithaca, downtown Ithaca to actually live next to Six Mile Creek also.
About a mile or two away from my Play Nature Podcast sit spot. But I still get to gaze out and look at the book of the creek. And what’s happening now with the creek is in the rain. You know, the water is moving, the water is moving all winter long. There’s thick ice, the entire thing. And that was really fun, exciting to see the ice and see how it changes and how it was growing and all that.
But amazingly, I always know when there are thick ice in the wintertime, when the rains come and things thaw and the, and the creek rises, the water level rises. When it does it busts through that ice. It busts it up and then sends it hurling down the creek. When the waters are raging and it breaks it up, the, the ice is like 10 inches thick, but there’s like mattress size pieces of ice, and they’re still like strewn about on the shorelines of the creek here.
So it’s pretty, still pretty awesome and dramatic. And so that’s what I’m looking at here as I talk to you. And so let’s dive into licensing. You know, I, I know this is a big subject because. Every project I’ve done, natural play Escapee project. We talk about licensing and hopefully we bring them into the project.
That’s a big concern. You know, rules and regulations. Every workshop I’ve done about risky play, we discuss licensing. Uh, every class, every talk, uh, people ask about licensing. Every, every time I do a slideshow and show all sorts of great pictures of kids in mud or climbing up slides or rolling loose logs, people say, oh, that’s real nice, but my licenser, I don’t think my licenser would let us do that.
And the same thing with, you know, the workshops and the risky roundtables. You know, I, I do these risky round tables where we get around and we all talk about, you know, how we do risk and, you know, the benefits or how the challenges to doing it or successes or our fears and everything. And of course one of the big topics is licensing.
’cause they do, they have a big effect on what you. Can do or what you feel comfortable that you can do outside in your yard. Even though we get it that loose parts and risky play and nature play is good for kids, it’s how do we convince the licenser? I’ve heard lots and lots of licensing stories over the years of licensers coming down, cracking down on seemingly innocent.
Safe things, and that can be very disappointing and discouraging, so I totally get it. Um, I’ve heard stories about licensers making people remove metal spoons from their sandpits, pull out brand new play equipment that was put in because it was too close to a fence line. No logs, no sticks, no bare feet.
On and on and on. And this is, you know, very discouraging, right? ’cause you know, these things are good, right? You know, these things are good for children. But when the licenser comes in, they might not realize what you’re all about. You know, they’re questioning everything. They’re looking at you Suspiciously can be nerve wracking.
To have somebody whose job is to be judgemental about you and your, your work. That can, that can be hu humiliating also. So I get it. That’s no fun. And it’s even like the perfect storm for like power dynamics, so. Hmm. That can’t be, that, that’s not necessarily the best part of being an early childhood educator having to deal with the licensing.
Um. What I’m talking about today here is more the day-to-day inspections, those kind of surprise inspections that licensers do. Uh, not so much if there’s an incident and the procedures that kick in when when something does happen, if a kid gets hurt or something, that’s a whole different deal, and I’ve heard lots of stories about that too.
But this is really the face-to-face discussions about you and your program. And your environment. And so I have lots of empathy for you for having to deal with that. And you know what? I also have empathy for the licensers, right? Let’s unpack that for a bit. The licenser job. I wouldn’t wanna have that job, you know, it’s very important job.
Right. They’re, they’re in charge of coming to programs, you know, all sorts of different kinds of programs and making some quick judgements about, okay, is this safe? Is this a dangerous place? Are the children safe here? Is somebody being negligent? Are they forgetting things? Is somebody actually doing a really terrible job?
You know, we’ve heard, we’ve all heard. Horror stories, crazy stories about programs, schools, childcare centers that are negligent, that are doing crazy things that are, you know, I don’t even want to get into that, but you know, we hear it on the news every now and then. So the licensers. They, they’re the ones who have to like, make those judgements and, and they’re there to protect children.
So it is a very important job, you know, when they bump into, you know, someone doing best practice like you and your people, you know, but they still are looking at it with that same eye. So, and it’s true that some licensers might not be the best, but that’s probably the minimum, right? Most are reasonable.
Most are just trying to do their jobs. In fact, I went to a licenser and regulator conference a couple years ago. I was invited to do a risky play workshop, and I was, I’ll tell you, I was nervous because of years and years of working with early childhood folks and schools and hearing all these horror stories about these licensers, you know, I thought they might have fangs and dripping blood and evil in their eye.
But I went to the conference and everybody was super sweet and excited and loved their work and felt like they’re, they’re really dedicated to their work and really felt a sense of meaning and purpose in their lives because their job was to help children and, and help children be safe, right? The next generation.
So they felt like, you know, all these mother hens. Now these people might have been at the higher levels of licensing who feel that way, but still it was, it was a good moment for me to just kind of reflect maybe on my own preconceived notions about licensers and what they’re about, um, and my biases. So they were great.
I had a, I had a really good time at that conference actually, and so that it got me thinking more about licensers and, and their job to protect children. And so, you know, when it is their job to protect children, they don’t want anything to happen. You know, the, the centers that they visit, they don’t want anything bad to happen to children on their watch, right?
They don’t wanna take chances. So they come in with that attitude. You know, they might be nervous when, when they look at stuff, they do risk analysis. Right. I always talk about that as the old way. You look at a space and it’s risk analysis, all the bad things that could happen, that loose log, a kid going up a slide, having frying pans, having bare feet, having a metal spoon.
What, what? What’s the bad? All the bad things that could happen. And you say, no, we don’t want any bad things to happen. So we remove all those things. That’s the old way of looking at things. Or it also might be the way that some licensers look at things. Now we know that we wanna do risk benefit analysis, and that’s when you look at the risks.
Okay, what could a metal spoon do to you? But you also look at the benefits. What, what are the good things about a metal spoon? You can dig, you can sculpt, you can, you know. Feed, feed sand to your plastic dinosaurs, you know, all that stuff. So, and then you weigh the Ben risks and the benefits. But the licenser is often coming in just doing the risk analysis and they’re making judgment calls.
Right. And they’re not always the experts in this stuff. Right. Some of them, if you’re lucky, they do have an early childhood background. But a lot of ’em don’t. They come from different fields, different places, and so they’re making these judgment calls and it’s based on their background with children with the rule book.
It’s based on their own relation to risk in their lives or with children, their comfort level, what their common sense is for children to play and play spaces. And it’s their interpretation of the rules.
And that can be nerve wracking ’cause they come in with all that stuff. But at the same time, they have seen things out there in the world. They’ve seen stuff that maybe might make our hair curl. Yeah, because there are. There are spaces and programs that are kind of negligent that don’t, you know, have the child’s best interest in mind.
And I will say when, uh, you have lots of loose parts, junkie look and loose parts and frying pans and uh, metal spoons and you let your grass grow and crazy plants going everywhere. Um. It can be hard for the untrained eye to distinguish between is this best practice or worse practice? Is this a sensory rich environment with loose materials and land of possibilities?
Or is this a yard that’s just filled with broken junk and weeds growing up? Because the people who run the program aren’t really thinking about it. Yeah, so when you’re doing loose parts and risky play and this kind of new way of thinking, which isn’t so new, right? They’re making judgements. So it really is up to you.
It comes down to you to communicate, to show them why this is best practice, why this is all working, why this is good for children. Because they do, they, it comes down to their comfort level in that space. And if they see the wild, risky things and it starts to have the emergency bells go off in their brains, they’re gonna get out the clipboard, uh, and then they’re gonna look at you.
And it really does come down to their comfort level with you. Does this person know what they’re doing with these beat up frying pans and muddy kids? Have they thought it through? Does this adult have a plan? Are they supervising? I had an interesting experience a few years ago doing a keynote in Durango, Colorado on risky play and sure, sure enough, at some point in there somebody raised their hand and said, oh, well this is, this is all great, but our licenser wouldn’t let us do this.
And so we got in a discussion, and this was a great, this is the way I I I tend to love my talks and workshops now, is that I realized that I learn as much as everybody else and probably more, you know, get a feel for the audience and, and where they coming from. So somebody was like, they were like, oh, we couldn’t do that.
Somebody else on the other side of the room raised their hand and say, oh yeah, we, we do all this kind of stuff. Then went back to the original person and they were like, well, our licenser is this, this, this person from the jurisdiction of this, and they would definitely not let us. And then the person on the other side of the room raised their hand and said, well, that’s the same licenser we have.
And we have mud kitchens and water flowing and you know, international Mud Day and pots and pans and all that stuff. And it was interesting for me to realize, oh, in this case it wasn’t the licenser, it was the provider. It was the early childhood professional, and it was really their comfort level, either with the risky play.
Doing it or what their fear was, what the licenser would say, or their ability or nervousness of speaking the truth or their beliefs of what they know about the benefits of risky play and loose parts to that licenser. So it really does come down to you of how you communicate that. How do you communicate those benefits?
How do you communicate that you know what you’re doing? Hey, I know what I’m doing and here’s why. The good thing is research is on your side, right? There’s lots of studies about nature in children and loose parts in children and risky play. It’s out there. So there’s a lot of, you got a lot of stuff backing you up, but it’s, it’s, it’s using your voice.
And when I did my book. Invents in risky play. What is your Yes. I again know that licensing is a big part of the puzzle. So I interviewed licensers at the state level. Um, I had a diff few different states mixed it up and the federal level, and we talked over risky play and one thing that was amazing, but not that surprising at that level.
Level they’re level headed. Um, but all everybody I talked to was all for risky play. They understood that it was important in children’s lives and that we should provide that in safe ways. They said the important thing was that you do it in the right way and that you manage it in the right way and that you supervise it in the right way.
So there was just certain language that they’re looking for to show the licenser on the ground, Hey, we’re doing this in a mindful way. This is intentional and here’s what we’re doing. They also said that they sometimes feel that they are the scapegoat. When it comes to supporting or providing risky play, so maybe that person in Colorado didn’t really wanna do muddy play or risky play, so they said, oh, the licenser, licenser wouldn’t let us do that.
The licensers I talked to who felt that, that sometimes they’re scapegoated said, yeah. A lot of times that comes out with their, the person, the provider will say, oh yeah, we, no, we can’t do that, that do that. Or they get, they get word of it later and then say, we didn’t say they couldn’t do that. We have nothing against the mud kitchen.
We have nothing against International Monday. But it might be that you don’t wanna do it. So we say, oh, licensing, licensing won’t let us do that. No, no. Yeah, I love to do it. I love to have kids money every day, but licensing wouldn’t, you know? So anyway, so that’s up, that’s up to you too. You know, you get to say how much you wanna dive into it, but in this podcast, we’re encouraging you to dive into it, so, so it’s yes.
Comfort levels and your communication ability. So we’ll sum it up now, we’ll, let’s go through some solutions. So I, if I put it out there, or summarize, we’re saying that licensers have a a challenging job. They have to make quick decisions. If they don’t know you or they’re new, they have to make. Decisions about you?
Do you look like you know what you’re doing? Does the environment look safe? Does the environment look like something that they’ve recognized? You know, when it comes to nature play, nature play stuff. Sometimes they just know pieces of play equipment in the right fall zones, right? And they wanna get rid of sticks and logs that that stuff’s hazardous.
So probably like when they studied or got their original binder, it talked about play equipment and head entrapments and pinch points and fall zones. So that’s, maybe that’s what they think of it as a playground. But here we’ve good people. We’ve turned it upside down and said, no, actually good. A good.
Environment is messy and hilly and bumpy and loose, and kids are digging in it and changing it and, and all that stuff. So it is very different for licensers. So we have to hold their hand, we have to help them along. We, we can help them see the light of the beauty of this kind of play in these kind of play environments.
But I know that that is not necessarily why people get into education and early education is to have to talk to Licensers or have to, you know, uh, argue your point, you know, eloquently and respectfully. You know, you don’t wanna have to deal with all that stuff. You wanna be around children doing the awesome play stuff and supporting that and saying yes, but.
As I always say, when it comes to all that risky play and loose parts and nature play stuff, we adults have to do the boring stuff so children can do the fun stuff. And when I say boring stuff, that might mean talking to Licensers, you know, backing up your practice, describing the research. Of why mud kitchens are good for children to your licenser.
Okay? It’s not why you got into it, but it is a key part of your job. Of our job as adults supporting play, is that we need to speak the language of the people that are in charge, where they have an effect on our children’s play and play spaces. And of course, that can be the principal of your school administration, fellow teachers.
Parents of your kids and the licensing. So we need, need to be able to find those words to describe the benefits and why we’re doing what we’re doing. So, okay. So here are some solutions and strategies when we think about the rules and interpretation of rules that dictate your environments and program.
Uh, number one, know your rules. Read those rules, know ’em, know ’em inside and out. And so then you can have a really good, strong conversation with somebody and a licenser who might say, Hey, uh, you know, no, no metal spoons. You know, the rules say we can’t have metal spoons. And I’ve heard from so many people in workshops, and Lisa Murphy says it in her, in her talks.
Show me, show me in the rules where it says I can’t have a metal spoon. Show me in the rules where I can’t let children go up a slide. Show me in the rules. And you know, again, this takes courage, but this is good. Maybe this is where we, we step into our strength, right? You know, you’re strong with big hearts and loving children and the work that you do, but this is another one.
You step into your strength, into your power and just say respectfully, where is that in the rules? Because I follow the rules and I go through them and you know, I don’t say anything about going up slides or having logs or planting apple trees. So it’s knowing those rules. Another thing that I always say, oh, like you wanna know how to get around the rules.
You follow the rules. Yeah. Yeah. So that was as, as a playground designer, it’s like, okay, you want to get around the rules so you don’t even have to have a conversation about rules. You just follow the rules and everything. Everything that you wanna do with nature play and risky play and loose parts can fit within the rules.
Natural play, scapes, hills, boulders, climbing logs, all that stuff. You can look at the rules and put the right fall zone down. You can have things spaced out the right way according to those playground safety rules. You just know those rules and follow ’em, and then you can put it aside. So that’s it. Know the rules for yourself.
Know the rules so that you can open up the book and ask the licenser to say, you know, about the metal spoons or whatnot. But then it’s also good, do a little research, do a little writeup about the benefits of things. You wanna be able to speak freely about the benefits of having. A wagon, a loose wagon in your space about having logs.
What are the benefits of that? And then you can tie it into the risk benefit analysis. If you have a boulder in your yard, do a risk benefit analysis about it. Look at the risks, look at the benefits, and then write how you, how you’re gonna manage it. How are you gonna manage the play around that boulder?
And you can do that with anything. If you’re gonna let kids go upside, you could do a risk benefit analysis. This could be a good exercise you do with fellow teachers, or it’s good with new teachers coming in who don’t know your program and the way you do things. You have a binder of risk benefit analysis papers that you and staff have gone through or that you’ve gone through.
This is good for you all to discuss, you know, and to see if you’re on the same page about boulders and slides and metal spoons and logs. Uh, and then it’s good. You can communicate with others, you can show parents if they’re wondering about you letting our kids climb trees. You get out your three ring binder and you go through and you say, oh, yeah, well we, we know the risks.
We looked at the risks and da, da, da. Um, but here are the benefits and then this is why we decided to do it. And so you do that kind of thing with licensing. And so first there’s the words and they’re like, oh, okay. They really looked at, uh, the tree climbing and they made some really smart decisions and here’s why they’re doing it.
They were thoughtful, and so they look at that activity and that thing and think, okay, they were thoughtful about that, but then in the back of their mind, they’re looking at you. And they’re thinking, okay, alright, I don’t have to worry about this person. This person knows what they’re doing. This person’s a professional, they’ve thought it through.
They, you know, they’re on top of it. And a lot of times that’s what that communication really does for them. It’s letting, it’s like on the beneath your words, you are showing them that you are a competent, capable, creative person and smart. So sometimes, you know, there’s that song, she blinded me with science so you can blind them with science.
You can get out the research right about why nature play is important, why loose parts are important, and you can just, you know, just go for it. Talk a mile a minute, tell ’em why. But so they’re gonna hear the words, maybe they’ll, they’ll go blurry, you know, listening to you. But what they’re gonna see underneath the surface is here’s someone who deeply cares, who, who’s deeply embedded in this stuff, who’s researched it, who understands it, and is doing best for children.
And that they can see that you are a partner with them for children’s safety, for children’s health and wellness, right? So they wanna know that you care as much as they do about children’s safety, have an in a space that is good for learning and is gonna keep them safe. So if they can look at you and be like, wow, okay, this person, I don’t need to worry about them because they’re on top of it.
So whatever you can do to get that point across is good. Could also be a supervision plan. All the, all the licensers I interviewed for my book talked about that. Just, you know, just describing how you supervise and what your plan is. Another great thing is to describe when they’re looking at your. Kids going up slides or digging with real shovels or the frying pans is to describe the difference between a risk and a hazard in that risks are good.
You know, children are choosing to use these things and they’re on logs and they’re choosing if they wanna jump off the log or not. And say a hazard is something that children don’t see and they’re not choosing and that can hurt them and that you. That you all are on top of removing hazards. Boom. All the things that children don’t see that could hurt them, but you provide things for risky, play for messier, play for roots.
Your play. A little risky. And you know the difference and that you make, uh, very sure. Every morning you do your playground safety check and you remove hazards. If anybody came into your yard at night or whatever, left things behind you, get rid of all that stuff. Any animals that came in, all that stuff.
You remove hazards so that children can do risks. Another great thing that you could do is show them my book, adventures in Risky Play. And you can, you can show them, you know, I, I put lots of pictures in there. I wanted to really normalize all this stuff, messy play, nature, play, risky play so that people would feel comfortable about it, feeling normal.
There’s interviews with Licensers in there, uh, so that you, there are a lot of things that you can point to in there. Another thing with licensing is that if you’re working on a new project, the best time I have found. Through my experience working with lots of projects and people all over the place is that it is good to bring Licensers in early.
So if you’re gonna do something very different nature, play a risky, play loose parts, instead of spraying it on them at the end, why don’t you bring them on in the beginning? I found this to be very successful, very positive experience. They. The ones that I’ve worked with have liked to be a part of it.
You know, you describe the philosophy, what you’re going for, what you wanna do, and you know, sometimes they’re like, yeah, I’d love to be a part of that and describe that. And you know, they will have their 2 cents too. Or they might just say, Hey, you got it. You know what you’re doing. Go for it. I trust you.
And I found that. From hear, from hearing it over and over is that when providers and pr, the early, early childhood professionals are communicating about the research, about the benefits, about your supervision, they trust you. You wanna try to form a trusting relationship so that they know that you’re someone who gets it and is on top of it.
And then if you’re gonna build something new, they can trust you. Yeah. And then here’s just another kind of fun thing, another tool that we have to help you communicate. ’cause again, I know that that’s not necessarily the, the reason that you got into doing what you do is to talk to Licensers. But it is important.
But here’s a tool, artificial intelligence. Ai, I don’t know if you’ve played around with that at all, but you can have it help you do things like create talking points to talk to Licensers about things. So for example, I just asked chat GPT to give me some five talking points to talk to Licensers, to show the benefits and, and help them understand why loose logs on the play space.
Would be positive thing and why they should support it. So there’s a lot. Here’s you wanna hear the answers, number one, whole body development. Loose logs help children practice balance, coordination, and body awareness. They provide natural opportunities for gross motor development, that fixed equipment often can’t.
Number two, you can imagine saying these to your. Your licensing professional, open-ended play logs function like outdoor blocks. Children use them creatively as balance beams, seats, building materials, or parts of imaginative play, which supports problem solving and cooperation. Number three, learning to manage risk.
When children step on a log, they naturally slow down and test their footing. This helps ’em development, judgment, and body awareness, which actually builds safer movement over time. For thoughtful supervision, we choose logs that are low and stable and we supervise closely. Staff regularly check them for stability or splinters and guide children in how to use them safely.
Number five, common practice in nature programs. Logs and other natural loose parts are wide, widely used in nature-based preschools and four schools because they provide rich developmental play without unnecessary hazards. Yeah, so I mean, you could have said all that stuff on your own, but if you need a little help, that’s the place that you could turn to, uh, AI and just help you get a, get a few little points that just might help you, you know, in your discussions.
And of course, you know, the way Ai AI works puts that out. Then it’s like, if you’d like, I can also give you three phrases that work well with licensing inspectors. How to dis distinguish hazard versus manageable risk. A one minute explanation you can deliver confidently during an inspection. So anyway, it’s eager to help and I’m eager to help too.
So if you have questions, why don’t you email me? Play Nature Podcast. At gmail.com and I’d like to hear your thoughts on licensing or your successes in communicating and also any challenges or, or stories. So I hope this was interesting, thought provoking, the idea that we’re, we’re really all on the same team.
We really all want the best for children. Safe, creative, fun, beautiful environments in which to grow and explore, learn, discover. Yay. Hey, I’m glad you’re with me. Let’s keep rocking it. Till next time.
All right, thanks for listening. Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at Play Nature podcast@gmail.com. You know, I like talking about this stuff and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide.
Fun stuff in there. And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard or loose parts or saying yes to risky play. My favorite motto is dream big, start small and never stop. Oh yeah. Woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there.
