Kristy DeGraaf: I think sometimes people see maybe center playgrounds or these adventure playgrounds, which are awesome, but we had to really be willing to do was just do it one step at a time. That was something that we kept in mind as we put the pieces together. Do things one step at a time.
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play nature, playing in nature. And the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen. Hi, Christy.
Kristy DeGraaf: Hi Rusty. How are you?
Rusty Keeler: I’m doing great. How are you?
Kristy DeGraaf: Oh, good. Good.
Rusty Keeler: Yay. Well, I’m excited to dive into, talk about nature and play and you know, that epic landscape that you’re in and how that affects your work.
But why don’t, first, I’ll read your bio so people know what you’re about. And then we’ll dive into it. Great. All right. Kristy DeGraff is the founder of The Learning Tree, a nature-based family childcare program, centered on play exploration and connection. A former social worker turned educator. She brings a unique lens to supporting children and families.
Christie supports other providers as a trainer advocate. The current president of the Professional Family Childcare Association of Utah and was the 2025 Policy Fellow with the National ECE Workforce Center. Her work focuses on creating environments where children can take risks, build relationships, truly belong.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Sounds so fancy.
Rusty Keeler: Well, that’s a wide range of things.
Kristy DeGraaf: Well, I do have a DHD, so
Rusty Keeler: Alright, there you
Kristy DeGraaf: go.
Rusty Keeler: I say like, if you got it, work it. Work it if you got it. Yeah. And so you, you are, and so that’s, you know, that’s part of what I’m really excited to chat with you about is a few of these different directions and, you know, ’cause not only I think do we connect on, um, nature play and risky play and creating, you know, rich and natural environments and loose parts and mess and all that kinda stuff.
But we also connect on the idea of like, putting the word out and advocating. Yeah. And so I, I wanna talk to you about that and also about your work kind of trying to. Enlighten legislators and help the lawmakers and everything. So I love to touch on all that stuff. I, I often ask people, you know, what do you stand for?
What do you stand up for? And I think that applies with you and your passion and your creativity, both in the work that you do with children and then the work you do in, you know, to advocate for all that beautiful work. But, you know, what do you stand for?
Kristy DeGraaf: Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, I, I really try to help advocate for, and stand for those people that can’t really do it very well for themselves, if that makes sense.
I just, I feel like when I, when I was growing up, I had a particular experience and I mean generally, like I had an incredible family. We didn’t have a lot of money, but we had a lot of really good experiences together and I didn’t, I didn’t personally experience a lot of trauma in my childhood, but my perspective really shifted when I started in college, when, when I moved down here.
One of my very first jobs was working for the Family support Center, which was the crisis respite nursery where they would bring kids who had been removed from their homes and needed a temporary emergency placement. We also worked with a lot of kids that were already in foster care or had been in foster care, and it just, it changed my perspective about what people go through because I think, especially when you’re young, you just think like.
Well, this is the way the world is and why can’t everybody, you know, see the world the way that I do? You just don’t, you don’t know that people have a huge variety of experiences and that impacts them in a lot of different ways. And so that was kind of the start of it for me, was just seeing that there some people who didn’t really have anybody to stand up for them.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: In the way that like my parents were there for me, for example. So. That’s where I start is, you know, trying to stand up for children, I think specifically is the area that I am obviously the most familiar with and really comfortable talking about. So,
Rusty Keeler: yeah, so seeing the world through other people’s eyes and thinking about their stories and knowing that, certainly, yeah, I mean that’s kind of an awakening for a lot of young people.
Like, oh, it’s different than how I grew up. But then you had like a social work background.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah, so I, so after I graduated from college, I actually ended up working for the division of Child and Family Services.
Rusty Keeler: Okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: For about six years, and I did a couple of things there, but most of my time was spent working with children who were either had been removed or were at risk of being removed for abuse or neglect or had been removed and then were back at their home and we were trying to help support, make sure that they were as successful as they could be.
And so I worked directly with these kids and families. It and saw the struggles that they went through, but I think even then I didn’t really. Grasp it, grasp their experience as well as I do now. I mean, when I started I was, you know, six months out of college and I didn’t have any of my own children.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: Mm-hmm. And so, you know, one example that I kind of talk about is I would look at these families and I would look at the, you know, some of the challenges they were having with their children. And I would think like, well, if you would just do this and this, you wouldn’t be having these problems with your kids.
And now I’m a mom of four.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: And my kids all, they’re incredible. They are all incredible. And they also have all have their own personalities and experiences and you know, with one of my children in particular, it didn’t matter that I did everything the way that I thought I was supposed to do it.
And he just had to kind of learn a lot of things his own way. And so. Being a mom to him in combination with that perspective and background that I had has really changed the way that I see the world and the way that I experience the world. And I understand some of the challenges that parents go through in different ways, so,
Rusty Keeler: mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s not just a quick, easy rule that applies and everybody’s different and everyone has different tools or, yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Well, and I think the other thing that sort of like helped connect some of those dots for me was when I was working at the family support center, I would see these kids come in and of course like they, you know, we see them as like sort of the victims of their circumstance.
And some of them had gone through really horrific things.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: And so that just really started to change a lot of things for me as far as. How I judged people and looked at people specifically in their role as parents, and started to kind of change how I saw what we were doing as a society, because judging parents that are in that circumstance is really like, it’s not helpful at all for any of us.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Parenting is hard enough if. You’ve had lots of support when you were a child growing up and you have, you know, uh, funds and support, you know, as a parent if you’re, if you have a partner and all that. Yeah. But then even these kids, you know, maybe their parents were teenagers or you know, when they gave birth and when they had kids too.
So that kind of cycle, generational cycle too.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah. The other thing is that I kind of started to understand a little bit more about how trauma impacts people. A lot of that through my training with early childhood. But it’s hard. I think I, I don’t think it’s impossible, but you know, I look at some of the families that I work with specifically and I think it’s really challenging for them to like.
Feel like, you know, their copayment to me is their first priority when they don’t have food at home to put on the table for their kid. Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: You know, so I think there’s a lot of complicating factors mixed up in that. But I do think we could do a better job of supporting all young parents, but specifically, you know, a lot of young people and parents and those that.
It didn’t have the support and resources they needed, and I think there’s a lot more we could do. So
Rusty Keeler: that’s beautiful. The idea of, you know, working with the kids, but then also working with the parents and, and yeah. Trying to lift everybody up.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: So how did you go from that to childcare?
Kristy DeGraaf: I wanted to be able to spend more time with my kids.
I also had this, you know, weird idea that. Running a business from home would be easier if I put everything in one pot.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: That turned out to be completely fault, but, and I was also just burnt out. Social work is a really tricky field and I thought, oh, I gotta, I gotta make some changes. And I decided to open childcare, which is funny because I was one of those moms that was like, I could never do what you do.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: Um, but the other thing is actually, the other thing is when we moved down here, we picked a program and put our kids in this program and we ended up having some challenges with them. And I just got to the point where I was like, I mean, I could do it this as well as she is doing it. So.
Rusty Keeler: So you went for it?
Kristy DeGraaf: I went for it. So you went
Rusty Keeler: for it? I
Kristy DeGraaf: went for it.
Rusty Keeler: And then how many years later? You’re still rocking it?
Kristy DeGraaf: Uh, it has been almost 20 years and I swore like, I was like, I’m gonna do this till all my kids are in school. Yeah. I actually graduated with my master’s degree in 2019 because I figured I’d go get my master’s degree and then I’d be ready to just transition Right onto something else.
Yeah. And here we are still.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. So you are putting all your super strengths in this direction.
Kristy DeGraaf: I am.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let’s paint a picture for people of your backyard.
Kristy DeGraaf: My backyard.
Rusty Keeler: Do we? Yes. Tell us about your amazing backyard.
Kristy DeGraaf: Sure. Well, one of the things that I knew pretty early on is that.
Time outside was gonna be really important and valuable for children. My dad was a high school teacher in Utah with five kids, so we didn’t have a lot of money. And in the summer we built range fence together as a family. Like so random. But as a result, we spent a lot of time outside. We spent a lot
Rusty Keeler: You built, you built what?
Kristy DeGraaf: Range fence. So like barbed wire, fenced, like holding cows. Oh,
Rusty Keeler: okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: But we spent a lot of time camping and out in nature and he was a science teacher, so he loved to tell us everything about,
Rusty Keeler: yeah, okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: The geology and all of that. Yeah. So I had that foundation, but when we moved here, we were actually living in a, we were in a different space.
We were living in a twin house and our backyard was really small, but there was grass and I thought that was great. So one of the thing I expected is that, you know, we’d go outside and give kids lots of time to go outside and it would be awesome. And at the same time I started my program, I was also taking these classes in early childhood so I could, you know, get on the career ladder and figure out everything I needed to there.
I remember we started taking the kids outside and I would get so frustrated because we’d like this patch of grass that then like eight feet around. It was just rocks, landscape, rocks. So we’d go out there and the kids would want, and it was like sloped. So all the kids wanted to do was like slide down the hill and they’d pull all the rocks down, like kind of under the fence, you know, which creates a licensing hazard.
And I was like feeling anxiety about that. Yeah. But then they would also go out there and like start like chucking the rocks in the grass. And in the meantime I’m taking these classes and I’m learning about, you know, being a YES program and setting up environments that are. Good for kids. And so I took the observations from what was happening at my house and the frustrations from what was happening there along with what I was learning.
And my husband and I created our first little mini, mini outdoor space for the kids. And I saw that the power that had for those children in kind of shifting their experience and helping them have. You know, more interesting and engaging interactions outside. Well, about three years into my program, the market crashed.
We also had our sword baby, and we were in this tiny little twin house and everything just kind of lined up just perfectly, and we were able to get our dream house on a short sale. So we moved here and it was amazing. However, the backyard was like a complete blank slate. Okay. And so we just kind of started taking what we had learned and what I understood about kids and what was good for kids and putting pieces together.
And my husband’s an incredible support and. Extremely hard worker. He’s also, he is an artist, so he is really creative. So he would take my ideas, like when I said I want a splash pad back there, he’s like, well, I don’t think I can do a splash pad, but I’ll do something better. And he ends up creating this like flagstone patio where you can turn on some water and it’ll start like.
Flooding the flagstone patio and then it goes down and there’s like a waterfall area.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: And it kind of snakes around the playground in this dry creek pad, and all of a sudden the kits can, you know, build dams and float things down the river and all of these incredible, fun experiences. So
Rusty Keeler: yes, yes.
Kristy DeGraaf: So we just have kind of put all of our eggs in that basket.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: I mean, we have an on the inside space as well, but I do really love our outdoor space.
Rusty Keeler: Yes, yes. I mean, I’ve been seeing pictures for years and yeah, I mean, just like, it’s like its own mountain, first of all, right? It’s like this giant slope, but then it has all these different levels and activities and things to get into, and it’s like you’ve all, you’ve created it with.
With boulders and planting trees and loose parts galore like concrete work to create. Yeah, like these patios and paths and steps and sand. Sand rings and, yeah. Yeah,
Kristy DeGraaf: it’s just, it’s been a lot of fun. I mean, it’s a very odd shaped backyard just because of how. The lot was, and so we just kind of decided that we were going to just like run with it.
Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Use what we could and make it as interesting and as engaging as we could.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: The other thing that was important to me is this is where we live. This is our home, and so I wanted to make it interesting and fun for the kids, but also like wanted to light. Make it a space that was fun for my family to be as well and
Rusty Keeler: mm-hmm
Kristy DeGraaf: for me to be as well.
And I think we’ve been able to really balance that in a nice way. I don’t think it’s impossible. I think sometimes people see maybe center playgrounds or these adventure playgrounds, which are awesome.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: But they think, well, I don’t want my yard to look like that all the time.
Rusty Keeler: Right, right.
Kristy DeGraaf: And, and so that was something that we kept in mind as we put the pieces together.
But the other thing that we had to really be willing to do was just do it one step at a time. In fact, I think it was the first summer we were here, I bought a bunch of fruit treats. Okay. And I put them in pots on my back patio. ’cause I thought if I buy ’em then we’ll, you know, then we’ll get, we did not get fruit trees planted for 10 years after that.
That’s what’s died. And then it was some time after that, before we were actually ready to do that, but just had to be willing to kind of do things one step at a time. Yeah, I think I got that from you. I think I must have,
Rusty Keeler: well, I, I love that saying dream big, start small and never stop. Never stop. That’s the key too, that you never stops.
And Yeah. So I think that’s what I’ve enjoyed over the years also is like just seeing your projects, right? It’s like. And is your husband’s an artist, so he is into project, so it’s like all these projects kind of adding up and Yeah, I think it is. It’s like you’ve worked with an unusual yard and space and slope and where some people, you know, yeah.
I don’t know what people think. With their own yards. But it doesn’t have to be, I think you prove it. It doesn’t have to be, doesn’t have to be flat, doesn’t have to be normal. That’s what, what we think of as a playground, because you can carve out and create, you work with whatever you have, and that’s what I, that’s what I love and my own work doing design, it’s like, okay, I’m excited.
Whatever. People have, you can work with any yard, any budget, and that idea of dreaming it up and then just, you know, doing project here and there, you know, has the energy and materials and all that Yeah. Come about. So yeah. So what do kids get into out there?
Kristy DeGraaf: I think the very favorite is the sandbox. And this was another thing that he kind of, sort of thought of.
We had a sandbox in the other yard and we made the mistake of making it out of railroad ties. I would not suggest that. Okay. Yes. I mean, I am all about messy plate, but those railroad ties like sort of leached this tar.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, Creo goo. Yeah. Yeah,
Kristy DeGraaf: yeah, yeah. It was not good.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Another thing we learned with that is we.
It was like kind of embedded in the grass and it would get out on the grass and kill the grass. And I, I didn’t realize it for a long time, but I have a little bit of anxiety and so one of the best ways for me to manage anxiety is to just like set it up so that I don’t have to, you know, deal with the things that like, make me feel really anxious.
Like the grass being killed by the sand all the time.
Rusty Keeler: Good.
Kristy DeGraaf: So. We took this idea that our yard was quite sloped and we were gonna have to terrace it, and we kind of made this entire level that is just the sand level. But in that, when we were doing some other concrete work, we decided to make a frame that was the sandbox.
And so my husband died, I think like three or four feet down.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: So that
Rusty Keeler: deep.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanted them to be able to dig forever. Yeah. So he dug that and then they just made this form around, it’s like an oval, it’s like an odd oval shape, like an egg or something. But he made that around, dug down deep, and then there is still sand outside of it, but there is a ton of room for them to carry the sand and play with it.
And then the other thing that he did is he. Routed like a pipe that comes off of our rainout, our rain gutters. Oh. And it goes into the frame, like it kind of like, he, he built it into a concrete frame. And so like the concrete frame is like, maybe like, I don’t know, like 18 inches. And the pipe comes out like maybe six inches below the, the top of the concrete frame.
And so when it rains, it fills up the sandbox.
Rusty Keeler: Oh yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: And I don’t know that that would work everywhere. Uhhuh, every time I post about my sandbox on social media, somebody accuses me of, you know, that I’m gonna kill the kids with brain eating amoeba. And I’m like, well, that’s not really a problem in Utah.
So I think we’re okay.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah, so, so we get the rainwater off of there and what’s cool.
Rusty Keeler: Very cool. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah. Well, we live in southern Utah, so it is the desert, so we don’t get rain all the time. Ah. But in the summer we get these monsoon seasons that come through where it would rain every single afternoon and it’ll fill up a whole sandbox.
Oh yeah. With water. Yeah. But then it soaks in within like an hour or two, so it’s Right, right. It’s like standing water there. Yeah. But it’s enough to like have like this incredible, like messy, crazy, fun experience. So we love the sandbox. We also put a rain barrel down there that we can fill up with water so that they have Oh,
Rusty Keeler: okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: Access to the access to water when it’s when we don’t have the rain, which is,
Rusty Keeler: yeah. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Most, most
Rusty Keeler: of the time. Right, right, right, right. Well, you know, I love that idea of when it rains something special happens.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: You know, you know, so many times when it’s raining, maybe some other programs, they don’t go outside when it’s raining or you know, that kind of thing.
But you know, we’re all about getting kids outside or so anyway, people, I love this idea of people creating like a rain event. Like it is a rain and when it rains, not only is the rain great, but that something special happens because of how the water is routed around or moved and everything. So that just sounds like a great rain event and you want, you know, kids are gonna wanna see and wanna get out there ’cause the rain is creating this space out there.
Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Two, two more things actually that I’ve thought about as you were as we were talking. So Sandbox, huge hit they love.
Rusty Keeler: Yep. Yep.
Kristy DeGraaf: But the other thing that I have been a little bit surprised has been as engaging as it is our garden area.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, you’re big into gardening. Tell us about that.
Kristy DeGraaf: Well, again, had a garden in the last house, and I learned from that as well.
It was just like a, it was a, just like a square foot garden, but it was just low to the ground so the kids could reach it. But you know, I have a mixed stage group. That can be tricky with toddlers ’cause they just don’t understand. If you pick all the green tomatoes, you’re never ever gonna have mm-hmm.
Regular tomato.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: Oh, when we made the garden space here, we put it in an area that’s kind of off to the side and we also eventually were able to fence it off. But the other thing that we did is we did some taller garden boxes and then we did one shorter one. So the shorter one is really like, we’ll plant, if we’re planting it there, we know that the kids are gonna have free access to it.
They can also get up to the taller one. We have milk crates that they can stand on, but we usually go in together ’cause it’s gated off so we can go in together. But. The kids love it. We will, I’ll start my day out there in the summer and usually we have one teacher outside, one teacher inside, and so they can pick, most kids will pick to come down, hang out in the garden, pick cherry tomatoes, pick beans, pick flowers, hang out with me, and it’s just so fun.
We’ve also made it a part of like our. Like we, we’ll do a garden party in the spring with parents and families. Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: And so they can help us prepare it or plant things together. They can also take home tomatoes, cucumbers, whatever we have. And it’s kind of like our little community garden space as well.
And then.
Rusty Keeler: Love it.
Kristy DeGraaf: I speak particularly because of the garden, we have also attracted a lot of pollinators and birds, and we have hummingbirds that come and we have two hummingbird nests and they come back every single year and hatch like two or three sets of babies every, oh man. And it’s so cool. So fun.
Yeah. We go check on the hummingbirds every day. And then we can watch their little beaks peek out of the thing. And then eventually there’s like, you know, one or two hummingbirds that look like they’re gonna fall out at any moment and then
Rusty Keeler: mm-hmm. Aw.
Kristy DeGraaf: And we know they’ve flown off and, but they’ll be back, so.
Aw.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. What beautiful experiences for Yeah. For the children there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so you’ve created this beautiful environment and, you know, with the, with a loving heart and the creative creativity of you and your husband and, you know, supportive parents and everything. Well, why don’t we step in the direction of some of your advocacy, because I’m curious then, you know, that what I just described that already is huge, right?
So that’s amazing in itself, but then you’re stepping and taking it further. You know, being in this world. Of childcare and in, in your state, you have a lot of vision and opinions about Yes. About how it, the affordability of childcare, about the laws of, you know, how many, you know, how many people, what it is to get licensed, or how many children you can have or unlicensed and all that stuff.
So how did you step in the direction of that and what are you passionate about as far as legislation? And then maybe we can get into also how other people can use their voice. How are you using your voice and why?
Kristy DeGraaf: Well, I think there’s a couple of things that contributed to this. Yeah. First of all, I believe I have kind of a unique experience with my background, first of all, in social work.
Mm-hmm. But then also the more I talk to providers, I think a lot of providers, especially home providers, started their programs because they never wanted to put their kids in childcare. And so. They never have been on the other side. They’ve never been a parent and my kids were, or a parent of kids in childcare, if that makes sense.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: My kids were two and four when I started my program. I remember going to those first classes and sitting in these classes with other providers and listening to how they talked about parents, and I was kind of appalled. I was like, you
Rusty Keeler: dunno
Kristy DeGraaf: what it’s like, you know? And listen, now that I have been a provider for 20 years, I get it.
Like I understand a lot of the things that they complained about. Okay. But I do think it’s really easy to just kind of look at another group of people and think that they’re the problem. Right?
Rusty Keeler: Sure.
Kristy DeGraaf: You know, like to look at parents and be frustrated because they’re bringing their kids to your program Sick.
Without kind of like also understanding that they might be at risk of losing their job if they don’t show up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so,
Rusty Keeler: mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: Not that’s an excuse, but it, I started to kind of see these systemic problems in part because I’d been a social worker, but I’d also been on both sides of this care issue.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: The other thing is, when I first started our. Childcare resource and referral director was really into advocacy. I remember one of the things she told me in one of our classes was when I was interviewing for this job as the director, I told the interview panel that I would never do anything that was not good for children.
And I was like, well, yeah, of course, of course. Who you know? I worked in a of situations and with different people, I can see how some people sacrifice what would be ideal or what is really most important, you know, to try and make the deal or, or get something over here that they want, and they’re willing to give up something that.
In a lot of cases I just feel like is non-negotiable. But she did a whole conference on advocacy and I dunno why she picked me. Maybe she could tell I was a little spicy, but she sort of handed me this packet of. Materials. ’cause she’d been talking about how important early childhood was and how it was the foundation and all the inve, like if we make investments here, she’d been giving us all the information and she kind of like at the end, kind of handed me this packet of stuff and she’s like, now if I give this to you, you have to use it.
Like you have to speak up and use it. And at that point I was like, I can’t, you know, like I, I, I throw, we would get these postcards that. Would say, oh, we’re reviewing licensing and you know, go here to provide input, and they would go straight in the trash. Sure,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah. Because I was overwhelmed and I, you know, was a mom of young children, like four young children, and I just didn’t have the capacity.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: I was also kind of one of those people pleasing eldest daughter types that was like, well, you just like, we just gotta follow the rules and it’s gonna be fine. Right.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: I think when you’ve been in this field long enough and you start to see how policy and systems impact your work, it’s hard to unsee.
And so I kind of started locally. We were having some issues with some of the city requirements and I could see where those were making it difficult for providers. So I started to do a little bit there, but then about five years ago. Somebody brought a bill where they wanted to double the number of kids that you could have as an unlicensed provider.
And listen, I know licensed providers, there’s good and bad ones. There’s also good and bad unlicensed providers. Like just because you’re licensed, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. However, just knowing what I know about, you know, social work and about. People. I think on some level, licensing provides a sort of basic layer of safety and you know, at least, you know, everybody in the home has a background check, for example.
Rusty Keeler: Hmm,
Kristy DeGraaf: okay. So at that point I had kind of taken, I kind of took a year and my family program was still open, but I was running a, I’D started the childcare center at. University here, and as a result, I had some connections with people and I knew one of the gals that was the liaison up at the legislature.
So I reached out to her and I said, what do I need to know to stop this? Because I, you know, this doesn’t feel right to me. Mm-hmm. And she gave me a kind of a crash course on advocacy and we got it stopped. Then. They since have doubled the number of children that are allowed in an unlicensed program, and they.
Keep bringing it up. This year, they wanted to increase it to 10, which is actually more than you can have as a licensed provider, so,
Rusty Keeler: oh geez. Okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah. So anyway, I just have been learning and advocating and trying to make connections and figure out how we can do better for our kids. ’cause I really, again, going back to where we started this podcast, I just think, you know, people don’t have the perspective and it’s easy for them to.
Sacrifice the good of other people’s kids for their own agendas.
Rusty Keeler: Do you mean providers themselves or are you talking about lawmakers?
Kristy DeGraaf: I mean like lawmakers.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about that kind of reaching, uh, yeah. To lawmakers, like, so, so you said the first time around it worked? Yeah,
Kristy DeGraaf: yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
What, in a nutshell, what are steps to using your voice in that way and being heard?
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: to make change because I’ve, you know, I had a dream recently where it was like, I woke up and I was like, oh my gosh. All the things that I’m trying to do to support, play, and advocate for play. What if the most important thing is to lobby and change license, you know, try to improve licensing according to, you know, people in the know what it should be.
You know, what if that’s the most important thing, but it seems daunting, but there are real steps, right? To,
Kristy DeGraaf: yeah. Yeah. So I think some of that is gonna depend on the process in your state and the political landscape of your state. But I, I got a basic in Utah. Okay. And I think this is how it is everywhere.
I don’t know. I was not into, you know, what’s, what was that show that taught you all about the constitution and how a bill becomes a lock? I didn’t know any of that, so I learned that. But what I learned, for example, is in Utah, if you have a bill like that’s on the final step of being approved, you’re probably like, you might be outta luck.
Like one to that point, it doesn’t matter. So. What I learned is that you had to stop these bills in committees. So that’s what we did. We focused on these committees that they had to go to before they went to the full house or Senate.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: And so, so after, after we did that with the first one, and this is where it got tricky for us, right?
Is we sponsor, and this the same way everywhere. What they encourage us to do is reach out to your legislators, develop a relationship with them, start emailing them, start calling them, meet with them if they’re local. I haven’t had my local legislators come, but I probably should have them invite them to come to my program.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: And so you start developing these relationships. Well, we had been working against this bill that this. One legislator had proposed and what we determined is that they really wanted to do something for childcare, and they thought that this was the way that it, they could do something without spending any money.
So when the session ended, we were. Talking to the sponsor and I just sat down one day and I listed out about five things that I thought maybe they could do to help support childcare. I, you know, look at, can we attach childcare providers to state benefits because they often don’t have benefits in retirement.
Rusty Keeler: Right.
Kristy DeGraaf: I talked about the issue of of school age kids in a family program and how that was tricky because. You would have these school aged kids that were taking up a whole spot, like you had to save a whole spot because they were gonna come after school, but then you couldn’t use those spots for other kids.
And oftentimes those you’re not making as much money. I’m trying to remember, there was like three or four other things. But what they did is they took one of those ideas, they took the school age kids and they started working on a bill around that. And we actually, that year, did get an exemption for family childcare.
So now you can have three extra school age kids in your program above your licensed capacity.
Rusty Keeler: Ah, okay. Okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: So, so it just makes it a little bit more flexible because they, you can keep the older siblings of those kids that are in your program, that have been in your program forever, especially when you have a single mom with multiple kids and you know, they don’t wanna have to take them to different program.
So. That was awesome. However, at the very end of that process, they attached that we’re gonna add two more kids into unlicensed care and they stuck it right in there. In that bill. In
Rusty Keeler: the same bill?
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah, yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah, yeah,
Kristy DeGraaf: yeah. I can’t remember it was that one. It might have been, uh, it might have been like a tax credit bill also that we felt like was important, you know?
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: To help the parents. So, so that’s where it gets tricky is. You know, I’ve seen this happen now multiple times and we kind of thought we were got to the point, well, they put unlicensed care at the same as licensed care. ’cause they did that again two years later.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: So now you can have eight kids, whether you’re unlicensed or licensed.
And I thought it was over, it was not over.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: They did the exact same thing this year. We had a, we have a policy group here in Utah that. It wants to work on these important issues and wants to work on these issues that are impacting families. But the challenge is childcare is not their expertise, number one, and so they don’t really understand the system.
And they also had the same issue where they had this thing that they really cared about, which was startup grants for new providers. They really wanted to make sure that happened and they also wanted to like improve some of the checks and balances on unlicensed care. And I don’t know why I can’t figure it out.
I haven’t figured it out yet, but somebody in our house leadership really wants to increase unlicensed care. I think if they had their druthers, they would just not have childcare licensing at all and just. Let you know, let it go. Let it be as it’s, and so, I mean, I’ve always been pretty involved, but I’m to the point now where I’m like, I guess we are just at the point where we have to be super proactive because otherwise.
We’re gonna end up with things that are really bad for kids. Wow.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. I think, yeah. Right, right, right, right. And then interesting, even if you have, feel like you have some successes, worked really hard, formed coalitions, you know, use your voice. And then actually had success. Sometimes then we kind of lay back a little bit, but it’s like you gotta keep on it.
You gotta keep that voice going or they’ll, it’ll come up again. What you’re, what? Don’t worry.
Kristy DeGraaf: That’s tricky, right? Yeah. Like it does feel like when I go to my other provider friends, I feel like I am asking more from people who probably don’t have anything else to give
Rusty Keeler: Uhhuh,
Kristy DeGraaf: but also, you know, I don’t know, I just kind of at one point.
I started thinking like, how can I take these things that I complain about all the time and how can I shift that? Because I can only do what I can do, and sometimes it does feel like I am not making any difference. But you know, like this whole thing with the school age kids. That ended up being something that, like, we complained about that all the time.
Mm-hmm. And now mm-hmm. We have a lot more flexibility there. And it, I mean, I think overall has been a good thing. I did. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: I love it. Right. And you think how many people that affected how many programs, how many kids, how many, yeah. That we’re able to, yeah. How many families and that, that did make a difference.
Like what you just said, like, you know, we all have a complaints and providers and especially when it comes to licensing or the rules or you know, the way things go. And so, you know, I think a lot of people maybe get stuck in the complaints and they feel mm-hmm. You know, the pain points, but that idea of that, that there is something you can do about it.
Kristy DeGraaf: Take those and what can you, what could you suggest? What could you fix? Kind of the same idea though, as like working in your space, right? Like the things that are like weird or odd or bother you about your outdoor space. Yeah. Like how can you flip that and make it a strength or make it something that works for you?
Rusty Keeler: Yes, yes. So, well, so, so you are a relentless problem solver.
Kristy DeGraaf: So many problems to solve. So little.
Rusty Keeler: Tell me my
Kristy DeGraaf: guess.
Rusty Keeler: There we go. Oh my gosh. So, okay, so maybe just the last thing I wanna kind of touch on is, so, so yeah, so, so using your passion and your energy to make change. And then you also are using that in your, you also have a communication.
Background and super skills. And so you are also like a, a master of social media and getting messages out there in creative ways that hook people. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. ’cause you definitely have an, you know, interesting take of putting great ideas and philosophy and questions through TikTok, Instagram and, and all that stuff.
And you seem to enjoy it.
Kristy DeGraaf: I do. I, okay. I’m gonna get right back to that, but I did wanna say one
Rusty Keeler: Oh yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Thing with the advocacy team. Yeah. And it also like goes with your backyard or your space as well.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: One thing I tell people all the time is be willing to do less than you think you should. Okay. If that makes any sense.
Because when I look at, you know. The work there is to be done. There are always 500 things that I could put on my list. Yeah. And maybe if you don’t have a DHD, you can’t relate to this, but I also tend to get stuck in the idea of all or nothing. And so sometimes
Rusty Keeler: mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: I’ll get frustrated because I wasn’t able to email everybody on the committee.
You know, all these long things, you know, and all these talking points and whatever. And so I tell people, just be willing to show up where you can, and if that is to send one text or make one call to only your local representative, do
Rusty Keeler: that. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Because all of us doing a little bit that way is really the only way to move the dial, because none of us can do everything we wanna.
Rusty Keeler: That’s right. I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So everybody can do something. So even people are thinking, oh, I wanna make, I want these things change, but I can’t, you know, like Christa, I can’t go to the legislator, you know, whatever. Yeah. But they can do the small things and those small things add up. Yeah.
Just, yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: You can do what you can where you are at and do less than you want to if you have to. You know what I mean?
Rusty Keeler: I like that. Do less than you want to
Kristy DeGraaf: if you have to.
Rusty Keeler: If you absolute yes. And it still makes a difference because you’re doing something. You’re doing something.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah,
Kristy DeGraaf: yeah. And it, it’s slow.
I mean, it’s slow and frustrating, right? Like I run my own business for the most part. If I wanna change something, I can.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: And that’s not really how government works. And I have had to learn a little bit about that and about coalition building and about compromise and all of that. You know, what’s the alternative?
We say nothing and we do nothing. And people without the perspective and without the true investment in kids and families like we have, are making the decisions. So,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: Anyway, but yes, I also, I do love social media. I mean, love’s the wrong word. I think it’s interesting. It’s an interesting area. I, my master’s degree was in professional communication, and so I just started to realize a lot of young parents are online.
A lot of the families that I’m working with are online. And it also a really powerful way to tell stories and to get points across. And you know, again, if. The people that no one understand about kids aren’t putting good information out there, there’s only gonna be poor information out there, and that’s only gonna be to the detriment of kids.
And so, yeah, so I just started making videos and at first they were really terrible. And I have also, I’ve had a few go viral and that, gosh, that is an interesting experience. You just kind of have to learn that. People online can be a little crazy. And if you have anything go viral, you’re gonna get the most random comments.
I,
Rusty Keeler: because you had like one of your TikTok videos, I was just looking like at over a million. Hits
Kristy DeGraaf: these. I had one that got 3 million views. Three. It’s that sandbox.
Rusty Keeler: The Sandbox one. Yeah. Yeah. The
Kristy DeGraaf: Sand. The Sandbox one has gone viral a few times on a few different platforms and I, the first time it did and somebody was like, that’s disgusting.
I was like, and a lot of people do think it’s cool.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: But, but yeah, you just kind of have to know if you are gonna be online. There are trolls and you kind of. I have to figure out some strategies, how to manage that. But, but I also have been able to develop some really incredible relationships through those interactions.
And I think I’m making a difference. I mean, I hope I am. I’m hoping, you know, like family childcare is one of those fields that can be very isolating and very alone.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Kristy DeGraaf: And feel very alone. And I think that was part of the appeal to me is because when I first started. You know, a lot of the other established providers in my community, I don’t know, they probably thought I was annoying or something.
Maybe they were also just busy themselves, and I just didn’t, I just didn’t feel like I had the connections with people that I knew locally, and so I started kind of trying to find people and reach out to people that were doing what I wanted to do. And that’s actually found, you probably know Michelle.
She’s in Oregon.
Rusty Keeler: Okay.
Kristy DeGraaf: She had this incredible family childcare program and I connected with her and started asking her questions and we ended up going to Bebo’s good stuff for kids together one year. And it just has been a way for me to really connect with people who are as passionate as I am, and it’s been amazing.
So.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like you’re connecting with your peers online in that way. Yeah. And then at the same time you are like beaming out, like wisdom and support and provocative ideas and everything that could, yeah. For other people that might feel alone or who are just starting out or who are in the trenches for years.
Kristy DeGraaf: Just like,
Rusty Keeler: yeah. Yeah.
Kristy DeGraaf: It’s just, there’s so much to learn and there’s so much to know, and. There isn’t always a good way to get the information that you need to be really like successful and feel supported. And so, I mean, one day it might be a video on how I address messy plate with new families or how we manage the mess in the backyard and what that process looks like.
Again, I just, I try to make it about connection. I mean, I know. A lot of what’s happening on social media is more of the attention economy, and there are things that you can use from that to like know how to hook people, how to get them interested in what you have to say. But ultimately, at the end of the day, for me, I don’t want us stir a controversy.
I want to help connect. Providers and help them know how to support children better and to know what is developmentally appropriate for children and how they can feel sort of emboldened to do more of that in their program. And so it becomes more about connection and support for me. And I think that, I mean, that’s a space I’m really happy about being in, so,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Yeah. Well, you’re doing it. You’re making other people happy to seeing, seeing what you’re up to, and you know that it’s inspiring other people to, to do, try the smallest thing that they can. They can try first, right?
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And yeah, then there there’ll be, you know, working their way at it just like the rest of us.
But thank you so much for sharing your story and your passion. And I, there’s so much. Well, the day-to-day work that you do with children is so beautiful. The, and then trying to make change and you know, use your voice for people who don’t always have people speaking for them and then putting it out and connecting with your great community too.
So I’m glad I’m in community with you.
Kristy DeGraaf: Thank you. And thank you for having me on. I didn’t really get into this, but. Your work has been very inspiring to me as well, and I just, all the things that you have put out into the world, I, I mean, really so much of what you have done has been a foundation for what I am doing as well, so
Rusty Keeler: Oh,
Kristy DeGraaf: I appreciate that as well.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, thank you. That’s great to hear. And that’s the idea, right? We just wanna put it out there and Yeah. Keep helping everybody take it to the next level.
Kristy DeGraaf: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: including you, dear listener.
All right, thanks for listening. Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at Play Nature podcast@gmail.com. You know, I like talking about this stuff. And maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide, fun stuff in there.
And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures, and when it comes to adding nature to your yard or loose parts or saying yes to risky play. My favorite motto is dream big, start small, and never stop. Oh yeah. Woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there.
