Jim McCullough: We want the kids to take healthy risks. That’s beneficial. These are the kids’ adventures. This is, this is their time in the forest
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler, and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play, nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen Hi, Jim
Jim McCullough: Hey, Rusty
Rusty Keeler: How’s it going?
Jim McCullough: It’s going great. Can’t wait to talk to you.
Rusty Keeler: I know. Can’t wait to talk to you, too So everyone should know that Jim is one of my pals, one of my play pals and buddies, and, and we’ve crossed paths lots of times in various conferences and woods and…
Rusty Keeler: Well, I wanna, I wanna dive into all things adventure walking. Yeah. But first let’s, I’ll read your bio so people can get a little feel for your, y- your path. And I wanna hear about the, I wanna hear how you kinda fell into forest and play work and all that kinda stuff, ’cause you’re- Okay … you’re, you’re a real believer.
Rusty Keeler: And, and could I even say a purist, a play work purist?
Jim McCullough: I have a purist tendency for a lot of things-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Jim McCullough: uh, Rusty, so, you know, I try to respect play work and, and what I’ve learned about it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Good. Well, we’ll dive into that. So here we go. Jim’s path to play began after a decade as an environmental and research chemist.
Rusty Keeler: Hmm. Becoming his family’s primary caretaker opened a door to human connection and to a play-based Reggio-inspired preschool. There, mentor- mentored by a director who championed saying yes and loving children, Jim embarked on what he calls his third degree, a self-styled bachelor’s in studying, observing, and reflecting on children’s playing.
Rusty Keeler: By 2013, he helped launch a pilot forest kindergarten program, and in 2014, founded Adventure Walkers LLC, celebrating childhood through playing in the wild parts of the great outdoors, the lost art of stopping, and the whee and the whoa. He left the preschool in 2018 to pursue Adventure Walkers full-time, growing into a presenter, workshop leader, and consultant in risky and outdoor play.
Rusty Keeler: This summer marks the company’s 12th birthday, and Jim is quietly pleased to be sharing that story on the Play Nature Podcast.
Jim McCullough: That’s right.
Rusty Keeler: Well, you know, I wanna hear this. What… Is there something recently, a moment when you had with them where you thought, “Yep, this is why I do this. This is, this is it.
Rusty Keeler: This is the stuff”?
Jim McCullough: Wow. I mean, you know, in some ways, uh, I mean, that happens every time. And ever since I sort of started, you know, learning and studying and just being involved with play, and, and spe- specifically when I learned about play work, and when I learned about play work, it unlocked the one, really one thing that unlocked the key was making sure you appreciate, you know, the benefits of what the kids are doing and not just the risks that they’re taking.
Jim McCullough: And, you know, and I won’t go into that right now, but- Really, that’s where the we and the whoa was, was born because, you know, kids are getting or excited about the stuff they’re doing and, but they’re also doing da- you know, dangerous things. Different degrees of danger. So I guess generally when I see a kid, maybe it’s their first time with Adventure Walkers and they’re tackling something, it could be, you know, climbing a bank with no rope or it could be, you know, just walking a- across a, a log that’s fallen over the creek and it’s maybe it could be three feet high or…
Jim McCullough: And, and they’re thinking about doing it, and maybe at first they decide not to do it, and then later in the day they come back and they, and they do it. And then as, as they’re getting off the log, usually they’re either saying, “I did it,” or, you know, they’re given one of these right here. And, um- He’s pumping his fist
Jim McCullough: and that’s like- Ladies and gentlemen … so, and yeah, so it’s every time that happens, I’m reminded of why I’m doing it, just for that opportunity, you know, to sort of be your own guide throughout the day and just, you know, be able to, to play out there. And there are various degrees of that, depending on the, the age and the size of the kid.
Jim McCullough: There’s a lot of helping, you know, of each other. There’s a lot of, you know, kindness between kids. There’s a lot of You know, building and discovering and, and there’s a lot of frogs.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: And the one thing that can stop play that I’ve noticed is if somebody screams, “Frog.” And, and even if you’ve seen a frog 1,000 times and held a, a 100 frogs, whatever you’re doing, the kids are stopping, they’re running over there-
Jim McCullough: like to see that frog. So- Yeah, yeah … nature is very compelling. Uh, I, I do agree that, that, that play is the heart, but nature’s a very compelling teacher.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Ha- have you always, has nature always been a part of your life?
Jim McCullough: I grew up in, uh, Western North Carolina in the creeks, uh, and all the creeks that got flooded, you know, in the, in the, in w- in the Helene-
Rusty Keeler: Mm
Jim McCullough: uh, hurricane. So yeah, I mean, my parents would take my, our family up to the mountains for two weeks. At one point we lived in South Carolina for a, for a small bit and, uh, and we were constantly in the creeks, you know, running around the, the mountains, you know. And, uh, that definitely seeped, I think, you know, into my bones.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah, no, that sounds familiar. It’s-
Jim McCullough: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yep. Yep. Me too. And, and then I love that idea that then you are helping that, helping children, urban, suburban, everything, have those experiences. Um-
Jim McCullough: I wanted, yeah, to give them the opportunity that their grandfather and their grandmother had that maybe it’s harder to get now.
Jim McCullough: And you’ve talked about this a lot, you know, on your podcast. And I was struck a long time ago, you know, when I learned about play work, about that, you know, the image of, you know, great-grandpa has 20 miles to roam, and then it, the roaming has gotten smaller and smaller. And so Adventure Walkers was a way to…
Jim McCullough: I can’t go out there and just unleash the kids into the woods, but they can have a good bit of freedom out there with a watchful eye, you know, just always on them. But the watchful eye is making sure things are g- you know, safe enough and not, you know, just on them all the time. And some kids stick closer, some kids want to go out a little bit, and I’ve got always got a lot of staff that’s able to, you know, go with kids down a creek if they wanna explore and Or stay with the kids that are build- you know, they’re making castles in the, in the s- sand of the creek or, or building forts or whatever.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah, it’s like you’re scoping things out, you know, keeping, like, safe as, you know, necessary or just looking out for hazards or, or whatever. I think that that idea of playwork or people that are inspired by playwork is kind of like the answer, one of the big answers to, like, getting kids back out again and having parents feel comfortable again, and whether it’s really in the woods or just in the s- you know, the neighborhood park kind of thing.
Jim McCullough: Right. Right. Yeah. I agree.
Rusty Keeler: So how… So tell us the story. How, how did you, how did you get there, get where you are now, and the discovery. I mean, I’m really interested in the discovery and aha of playwork, how that resonated with you and the forest, and how you experimented with that and, you know, talked people into letting you try, try, you know, experimenting it, in, with it and then-
Jim McCullough: Started working at our daughter’s preschool, I think around 2007, and, you know, I was at a school that was, you know, it was, it was excellent.
Jim McCullough: Uh, the staff was, you know, incredible, and I, I learned, you know, really so much from the staff, as much as I, I did just observing the kids playing. But I was, I was keen to go on as much professional development as possible. And in 2009, Robin Moore, somebody brought Robin Moore into town, and he talked about, he talked about risk, uh, in play.
Jim McCullough: Uh, you know, he, he… I remember the graph and he, and I remember him saying, “You know, if you really were worried about risk, you wouldn’t go on vacation to the beach,” you know? Uh, I mean, there, there are plenty of, uh, risky things, like, that we do not even thinking about it- Yeah … or that parents do maybe. And anyway, he said two words.
Jim McCullough: Uh, he said Wald kindergarten, which is outdoor preschool in Germany, and, uh, playwork. And A- and so both of those words sort of, kind of led me on to find out more. There were two play workers from, from, uh, England the very first day. One of them had the classic, you know, “Better a broken bone than a broken spirit” quote.
Jim McCullough: So, and, and, and we were off, and we were just playing with sticks. We were, you know, going through the PlayWork principles. You know, there were some, some lecture components, and then we would, we would go off and, and do different things just to kind of solidify what they were talking about. Yeah, it was just incredible.
Jim McCullough: And like I said, you know, sort of the, the notion of kids are gonna do risky things. They could get hurt, but you, you know, before you just stop it, you have to consider, you know, what the benefits are. They talked about the research at the time, and there was, you know, already research showing that risky play was good for you or the kids playing and taking risks.
Jim McCullough: And in fact, I left that weekend thinking, that was when I first started realizing that safe enough is what you’re, what you should be trying to shoot for because- Mm … there’s no way to keep a kid, you know, 100% safe. And of course, now there’s more research sort of, you know, validating that. And but at the time, I was– I went back, and I was kind of, you know, just sort of had a different lens on, on the kids playing.
Jim McCullough: I mean, we were already a, a nature preschool before there was one. We were out, wooded, wooded playground. You’ve seen that now. You, you- Yeah … when you, when you came to visit. Yeah. And, um, yeah, so but it, but it just gave me, y- you know- Permission to myself anyway to, like, let the kids, extend the kids’ play, you know, a little bit.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, you started stretching more in that direction.
Jim McCullough: Stretching more- Yeah … in that direction. And, you know, and just not… You know, I, I read the other day about, about somebody, you know, s- saying, “If you see kids doing, maybe doing something risky, they’re, and they’re playing, you know, count, give them 19 seconds.”
Jim McCullough: And it’s interesting, ’cause I feel like it, it, I feel like at one point it was 10 seconds, now it’s up to 19. Which is, which is a positive in my mind because, you know, it’s, it’s, you know, a little bit more time to really see the gold that these kids get into. And as you said earlier, of course, there are hazards that you can live with, uh, and then there are hazards that, you know, you can’t.
Jim McCullough: And every organization’s gonna have a different, a different line for that. And, and that’s, uh, another thing that I learned, you know, along the way at another Robin Moore conference was that no one, no one can come in and tell you, like, what risks to let the kids do and not do. For one thing, it’s their choice.
Jim McCullough: A risk is a choice. But you have to decide, you know, a- as an organization sort of what your risk parameters are. Yeah, yeah. But at the time it was just little stuff that the kids were able to do. You could tell they were getting so much out of it. And then it, and then, so at some point, the forest kindergarten was the other word that I learned about.
Jim McCullough: And so in 2013 after, you know, I’d been reading about different variations of that, you know, s- and then realizing that every country sort of has their own- Sort of version of that. And, and whether it started, you know, in, in a Scandinavian country or in, was it Norway perhaps? Uh, I learned about it, you know, through the bald kindergarten, forest kindergarten.
Jim McCullough: But a big part of that when I learned about it, it was a play-based enterprise. And so that was gonna be, that was just another area where all of a sudden now we’re out in the small woods behind our preschool. And so, and there are more risks, and the kids were in, yet the, and the kids were thriving, you know.
Jim McCullough: And they were, uh, you know, in nature as I think David Sobel said, calibrates to the kid. And there was a fallen tree with a giant stump, and some kids would climb to the top, and some kids would stay at the bottom. Some kids would climb on the roots in the back. Some kids would just sit on the ha- half stump that was left, and everyone was loving playing out in nature, like in their own way.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: So, you know, and, and as a teacher it’s hard to, to not like create something, something an- that can be, you know, for, for all the kids to do. I mean, that’s what teachers in the best of circumstances are, are creative and they are, they are good at, at putting together like curriculum that’s, that can wow you and be, and be great.
Jim McCullough: But I really wanted it to be out there in the forest. I was kinda like, I suppose going purist and I just, I wanted, you know, we’re just, we’re go out with the kids.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. We
Jim McCullough: had a hand washing station. They’re washing their hands. They’re gonna eat their lunch, and then we’re gonna be out there for two hours.
Jim McCullough: Yeah. It was a half day preschool, so this was like an extra thing that, and they would sign up for the year. And, uh, I wanted it to be, you know, let’s just be out here. And so a lot of play, you know, ensued. Um, but there was also exploration and … But during open time, which was a big part of the day, you could, the kids could go around.
Jim McCullough: So it really was a mixed age, uh, situation, uh, just kinda like high school is. And that’s one thing that I took. I wanted Adventure Walkers to be a mixed age situation. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, I’d, you know, I’d heard and, and, and you feel this too from your youth if you, if you played, you know, that, you know, when you’re, when you’re out there, uh, in the woods, you know, a 10-year-old, uh, and a 6-year-old can be exactly the same, like when it’s, when you’re trying to save the, the, the salamander from, from, from probing hands, you know.
Jim McCullough: And then when that’s over and the salamander’s safe, like you go your separate ways and you might not see each other again. But there’s that moment when you’re with another human being, they’re younger. Normally you would, you know, you pro- might not even talk to them. You know, everyone’s got their You know, climbing the bank.
Jim McCullough: You know, you could be a five-year-old and be this dynamic, amazing climber, and the, and the nine-year-olds are like, “Wow, look at that, look at that kid.” You know?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Jim McCullough: Or you can, you know, you can be a, a big brother or big sister for the first time. You know, you might not have any other siblings and, and you’re helping this, you know, four-year-old find, find a crayfish.
Jim McCullough: You know, or you’re just… Or helping them walk a log or build something and So yeah, that was, that was unique about that preschool. And then we would all go outside together into the, into the big sort of semi-wooded playground.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, like how you were talking about the teacher and preparing the environment, say the indoors, preparing the classroom and activities, and certainly I saw that in like the water room, which still blows me away.
Rusty Keeler: Like- Yeah, yeah … the, the water table and water stuff and pouring, and kids wore their, you know, they had their little smocks on and stuff. And, and it was- Right … and you had tons of towels. I mean, it was a, it was a crazy, wet mess in the classroom. But all those different Lego rooms and all that kinda stuff, that’s like prepared by the adult, and you could see that, like you know, and they were working around the outside.
Rusty Keeler: And then when you go into the woods, it was almost like the opposite of like, boom, there’s the woods, and let the… You just have at it and see what happens. Right. See what happens. And, and that’s, I don’t know, that’s just an interesting thing too of, you know, sometimes we think about like outdoor classrooms.
Rusty Keeler: People are gonna build outdoor classrooms. And so they’ll, they might build like counters and tables and storage and… Which is great. Okay, it, it’s neat to have that kinda stuff.
Jim McCullough: Sure.
Rusty Keeler: But I think of like just the plain old woods. There’s your, there’s your outdoor classroom.
Jim McCullough: There’s your outdoor classroom.
Jim McCullough: Yeah. And, and that, you know, not only are, are teachers, you know, do they want to teach, but when you’re organizing a building, your first thing you’re thinking of is your classroom. And, you know, so I, I suppose it makes sense that people would do that for an outdoor classroom. But yeah, what ab- what about just the time component?
Jim McCullough: Like, what if… And I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m, I’m, I’ve heard you say this. What if we, what if we don’t build anything, like you’re saying? We just go out and see what, what’s going on, you know? And that’s kind of the approach that, that I took, and it’s the approach, like with kids, that is, you’re best served in, in getting to know them.
Jim McCullough: I mean, and play work is a very relationship-forward, you know, endeavor. And really getting to know the kids, not just for the risky things they might do, and you know if a kid’s a good climber or not. And when you’re out there, going into a forest is, i- if you’ve never been to one, which a lot of the kids, uh, haven’t, it’s a risky proposition or it’s, ha- you know, has a feeling of danger just going, just going in there, you know?
Jim McCullough: And so-
Rusty Keeler: A thicket …
Jim McCullough: if these-
Rusty Keeler: The wilds …
Jim McCullough: the wilds. Yeah, I mean, give them, give them time to sort of- find their place in that. And, you know, you can, they may stick, stick close to one of the counselors, you know, it’s, and, and find a, you know, a counselor that, that can be a buddy for a little while, and then at some point during the week or during the day, uh, they may sort of find a per- another kid that’s, that they’re, they can hang, hang out with and, and grow from there, you know?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. What’s the age range typically or sometimes-
Jim McCullough: So, uh- … with the adventure, adventure walkers? When I started, when I started, it was you had to be eligible for kindergarten, and so, so that was… And, and it was gonna go to, like, eight, and I was, that was kind of gonna be the sweet spot of the imagination. And it was, you know, it was, it was gonna be a very imaginative, like, time.
Jim McCullough: But eventually kids started wanting to keep, keep doing it, and so it basically became elementary. So it was kind of like 5 to 10. And then some kids wanted to, wanted to keep doing it also, and so I made this, uh, JCAT position, which is junior counselor at training, and, uh, instead of junior counselor in training, which is a JCIT.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. J-
Jim McCullough: a JCAT. Yeah. Yeah. And that was just, you know, that’s my, you know, sense of humor or fun. And they got to be, uh, sort of half adventure walkers, half, you know, part of the staff, or they get to carry stuff for me. Um- There you go.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Jim McCullough: yeah, and they get to, they get to kinda hear me talk about the philosophy.
Jim McCullough: And, and, you know, ideally then as they get older, they can, you know, be a junior counselor or volunteer, and then as they get even older, they can be a junior counselor and work, you know, some during the summer.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Jim McCullough: Um, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Boy, I love, love that. Yeah. Folding it in next generation.
Jim McCullough: Yeah. And there have been kids that have done a little bit of everything, you know, so.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. So if you’re, like, kind of a, you know, sort of through osmosis but also teaching some of these younger people, you know, the in training, the at training, and junior counselors about playworking a space, what do you tell them? Because if they’re watching you, it might look like you’re not doing anything.
Jim McCullough: Right. And that’s the, that’s the, uh, one thing about play work that parents can, you know, can hone in on that kind of thing, too. And that age, I’m just, I just want them to enjoy being in the forest, to be with the kids, let them know that, like, th- these kids are pretty, pretty capable. They can do a lot of things.
Jim McCullough: You know, you don’t need to help them unless they ask you to help them. You don’t strictly have to do anything. But if they do ask you to play with them or play chase or, you know, walk down the creek, that, you know, you can do that. So, and then as the staff gets older, you know, a lot of the talk is about risky play and how we want, you know, the kids to, to take healthy risks and, uh, how that’s beneficial.
Jim McCullough: And, and I have to s- I mean, I spend a lot of time, you know, talking about, uh, these are the kids’ adventures. You know? This is, like, this is their time, uh, in the forest. And, and, you know, that can be, uh You know, it’s like a person to person. And, and, and for a kid that is, you know, maybe wants to dip their toe into, into sort of getting into the staff, uh, side of things, you still may wanna do things.
Jim McCullough: And of course there’s, you know, there could also be a 10-year-old who’s an Adventure Walker that is sort of, you know, let’s go build a fort, you know? And, and everybody’s going to build a fort all of a sudden. And so, you know, I try to, I, I try to tell the staff, you know, don’t worry about, don’t worry about making mistakes.
Jim McCullough: You know, we’re gon- this is their time, but if you end up, you know, leading a trip down the creek and everybody goes, and then we’re gonna talk about it. So we, we try to reflect at the end. On a good week, we’re reflecting daily, or at least at some point during the week, and, and we talk about, uh, emotions that they have experienced either vicariously through the kids or if there’s, you know, there was a, a kid that was about to do something and you were just terrified and you stopped them from doing it.
Jim McCullough: And then, you know, upon res- reflection, you know, you, you, you think, well, you know, I, I probably would’ve let, have let them do that now, you know? And so at least, you know, you’re growing, you know, personally. Or some- a kid, you know, was you’re watching a kid all week and they, they wanted to jump the creek and there’s a lot of like gully and creek jumping.
Jim McCullough: They wanted to jump this little, this, uh, you know, gully, and the last day they did it and they got so excited. I kind of … So that’s how, that’s, you know, sort of how the training is, is at training. I mean, there’s, you know, because everything I feel like is tied to your emotional relationship with the kids, you know.
Jim McCullough: And again, just talking about making sure that they are the kids’ adventures and there’s a lot of talk about, you know, risk and hazards and-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. I like that idea, you know, the, one of the things I l- so many things we love about play work, but that idea of the self-reflective part, self-reflective-
Jim McCullough: Yeah
Rusty Keeler: practice of, you know, because when you’re really out there, especially you all who are in the woods with kids and there’s creeks and there’s logs and sticks and sharp stuff and rocks and, you know, whatever, you know, it, it is a constant dance of how you want to intervene or clear a hazard or say yes or, or you’re doing your counting to 19 and watching what happens.
Rusty Keeler: But that reflective afterwards, and I think that’s one of the things that everybody can, you know, who works with children. You know, sometimes it’s, you know, if it’s real top-down with the adults, you know, leading the way and everything, th- maybe it’s not reflective. You just keep plowing ahead and, you know, leading the way ’cause you’re the adult and, you know.
Rusty Keeler: But really, I mean, I think there, I like the playwork because it also opens up the vulnerability in the adult to be like-
Jim McCullough: Yep … “
Rusty Keeler: You know, I’m doing the best I can, and I’m trying to support this, but I don’t always know if I’m, you know, if I’m making the right decisions, and maybe I stepped in when I, maybe on reflection I shouldn’t have stepped in because they were okay.
Rusty Keeler: I only counted to 10 and not 19 or, uh, or I should have stepped in.” I was, I was being a purist or thinking, “Oh yeah, just don’t, you know, I shouldn’t intervene at all, and I really should have.” And, and, and the idea of being honest because ultimately the next day is a new day, and-
Jim McCullough: Yeah …
Rusty Keeler: you can, you can make different decisions and, and, uh, yeah.
Jim McCullough: Yeah, I agree. It’s a good way to learn about yourself and be with kids in the process. And you also, you know, there’s that notion, uh, that playworkers always talk about that, you know, there’s gonna be times where you have this feeling in your stomach, you know, this tension, right- Mm-hmm … about, you know, can I let them?
Jim McCullough: This seems like something bad could happen. Well, yeah, remember, things can, you know, hurts can happen, you know, and, and no one wants it to be a big hurt.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. What do you think… Here’s a question. What do you think, what do, what do adults usually do too much of that you’re trying to do less of?
Jim McCullough: They’re having too many teachable moments and asking, like, too many questions, like, right at the You know, I’m trying to, uh, as I learn through play work, to give the kids time and space, you know, and permission to play.
Jim McCullough: So that’s… I think that’s one thing I
Rusty Keeler: mean, jumping in and feeling like they need to teach and they need to be reflecting- Yeah, yeah … what the kids are doing and
Jim McCullough: Yeah, I mean, the kid, and, and you know, the kid is, is floating a leaf down the creek or something. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe they made a, made a rudimentary boat and they’re floating that, and they’re jump- you know.
Jim McCullough: Oh, look, you know, if you could- if you did this, like, you know, it would really float. And I’ve probably been guilty of that before. Something just catches you, like such a basic thing, and you wanna jump in there and, and, and make it better. You know, I think one thing, like, adults don’t do is just talk to other adults more.
Jim McCullough: ‘Cause, I mean, if there was, you know, more talking to each other at the playground, then in so- in some ways, like, the kids get that feeling of, “Oh, they’re talking to other adults, and I’m just…” You know. Uh, they- you get a little bit of, of feeling. I mean, there’s… Especially while play is happening, you know, if you’re constantly being interfered with, that’s got to have an effect on you, you know, psychologically.
Jim McCullough: Like, like, “I’m not good enough.”
Rusty Keeler: Huh. Right. The, the, yeah, the, the, I think of play as, like, this flow that’s happening, this flow. Right. And you do need, you know, you need to create that space and, uh, you know, maybe the play worker is creating the, you know, boundaries or holding back the world, but that it’s interesting that, yeah, the adult can be poking into that flow Like-
Jim McCullough: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Um How long is a adventure walking session typically?
Jim McCullough: I, I guess typically, I don’t know if there’s a typical, Rusty. It’s, I mean, it was a half-day camp for a long time.
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh.
Jim McCullough: Now you, now you can kind of do the AM morning and morning and afternoon sessions, and you could, you could be out there for eight hours.
Jim McCullough: I mean, there are some tunnels that, that are in one of the parks in Richmond, and there’s a, a parking lot, and we’ve done the drop-off right there. There have been mornings where we just haven’t left because the tunnels are so rich of a play environment- Yeah, yeah … and a nature, nature environment-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah
Jim McCullough: that, or we’ve been there f- you know, for a couple of hours, and I’ll generally will, will wait for a kid to say, “Can we go somewhere?” And so there could be, you know, an adventure walk where, and where if, you know, if I have enough staff, one, one group might be loving the tunnels. Another group, they might want to, you know, start walking and, and, you know, or they might have a specific place that they want to go ’cause they’d been there before.
Jim McCullough: So, you know, what is a session? For me, that session started when we got to the tunnels because that’s where, like, the play started, and that’s where the kids wanted to be. And, you know, there’s no walking. I’ve had two-hour sessions. Four is sort of what I’ve settled on as that was, like, gonna be my half day.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Jim McCullough: It’s just you need a little bit of time. I mean, it’s hard to-
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right
Jim McCullough: Whenever it’s shorter than three, you know, hours, it’s kind of just not enough. Yeah. And, and now that I’ve started doing you could go all day, it’s wild, uh, you know, just, uh, you know, talk about your meta mood. Like there’s, you know, plenty of Of time, of just, you know, kicking the, the, the rock around and, and then all of a sudden thinking of something to do, you know?
Rusty Keeler: There’s enough time to have things happen, and then there’s in-betweens, and then there’s- Mm. Yeah.
Jim McCullough: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. That’s r- well, that’s interesting, the, the idea of the adventure playground as being like, okay, here’s a designated space, and there’s where the children rule, and that’s their, you know, they have the adult support around the edges, but they can…
Rusty Keeler: And yours is, it’s almost like it’s a ranging space. And it could be a one space. You could stay there all day if it was, you know, engaging at the, the creek and fallen logs and the tunnels. But it could also just meander and find its way, you know, different places.
Jim McCullough: Yeah. Yeah. Well, now, I mean, I’ll get parents that say s- you know, “So you take kids on hikes?”
Jim McCullough: Yeah. And of course, you know, I’ll say, “Well, you know, hikes from A to B,” the parent’s yelling at them to hurry up. Yeah. You know, ’cause they, they wanna see the view, and they gotta get back ’cause they have stuff to do.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: And so I definitely did not want that to be, you know, adventure walking. So ours is, yeah, it’s a little more meandering and, you know- But it could be 50 yards.
Jim McCullough: The kids are playing, and they’re there for four hours, and then we turn around 50 yards back and get picked up. I mean, that, I mean, 50 yards has never happened, but there’s definitely been, there’s n- there not always a lot of walking.
Rusty Keeler: It could be anything. Yeah. Could be anything. There’s no, there’s no destination as like on a hike.
Jim McCullough: That’s right.
Rusty Keeler: So that’s-
Jim McCullough: Yeah, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Do parents ever get scared?
Jim McCullough: People will, uh, ask questions. You know, I’ve, I’ve talked to one parent, and they said, you know, they, they ask if I do background checks on staff, and yes, I do background checks on staff. You know, and so they’ll ask, you know, specific questions like that.
Jim McCullough: You know, they’ll ask about staff ratios and, you know, partly because of forest kindergarten, which, you know, the staff ratios on those are, you know, depends on, depending on the age of the preschooler. But, you know, somewhere four or five to one. A- a- as kids get older, you know, you can have more kids. The, that ratio increases.
Jim McCullough: But I’ve always k- it’s always been kept kind of low just because I want to be able to have the freedom or for the kids to have the, you know, freedom to… Really it’s, it’s kind of the freedom to, to keep doing what you’re doing, you know? Uh, because if we’re, if we’re all traveling around in a big group, like it…
Jim McCullough: And, and at some point, and we can vote, and we’ve done that before, you know, with groups. Like, kids are loving it. These, but these kids are, some kids wanna go to the, to the tunnels. A- and so we’ll just vote, you know. And sometimes it, it’s, you know, 12 to eight wanna go to the tunnels. So we go, we go to the tunnels ’cause there’s just not enough staff to keep it.
Jim McCullough: Right, right.
Rusty Keeler: And- Right …
Jim McCullough: and then, you know, generally everybody finds something there that they want to do. There probably are parents that think about, that wonder how dangerous it is. Uh, but I’m not sure exactly. Like I, I don’t… If you could tease that question out a little bit more. Like, worried about, like, that we’re gonna, you know, just let the kids jump off 20-foot cliffs or something, or that kind of, you know-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah
Jim McCullough: danger or just, or just being out in the forest. Like, there’s all, you know, all kinds of dangers.
Rusty Keeler: I like what you said just a s- a minute ago about, uh, having the ratios, enough adults so that, uh, essentially so the group can split up. So if some- Right … kids wanna move on and do other things or feeling, you know, adventurous in that way, and other kids can just, like you said, just stay in one spot and not, not be pressured or have to, have to pull up.
Jim McCullough: It, it’s sort of the, I don’t know, it just gives them a little bit more freedom to keep doing what they wanna, you know, what they wanna do or change it. Yeah. It’s not necessarily a sustainable business model as if you’re tr- you know, if you’re trying to sort of Maximize what you’re, what you’re earning, uh, if it’s, uh, uh, no matter how you slice it, and that, like, really wasn’t necessarily the, the starting point.
Jim McCullough: I mean, when I did this it was kind of like, oh, can, you know, can this happen? You know, can this be done? Yeah. And, you know, it was a smaller group, and it was just for a week, and then I, I was also, you know, still caretaker for my kids and, and, uh, you know, for our kids. And, and so, uh, just, you know, started adding, adding time to it pretty quickly.
Jim McCullough: And it’s an in- it, it, I mean, I, it is kind of an interesting, interesting notion that, of being able to split up, and you gotta, you know… Communication is the biggest part of staff, and- Do
Rusty Keeler: you have walkie-talkies?
Jim McCullough: We have walkies at this point. Yeah. The walkie-talkies, like, I’ll, you know, I’ll give, uh, I’ll, however many I have, you know, that, that I can spare.
Jim McCullough: And so they’re just, like, talking smack on the walkie-talkies. Ah. I
Jim McCullough: mean, that’s like- You give the kids,
Rusty Keeler: the kids get the walkie-talkies too.
Jim McCullough: Sometimes it’s a kid. Yeah. Like, a staff will have one that’s- Yeah … whoever’s going with, you know- Yeah … a particular group. And, you know, they’re hiding together and… But it’s really funny just, you know, just hearing the, hearing the banter, you know.
Jim McCullough: And these are, these are the older kids, you know, that are-
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh …
Jim McCullough: these are the, like, fourth and fifth graders. Yeah, that’s, and that’s something that, like, in the afternoon, I just started doing the afternoons and, and they’re a little bit smaller, so I’m b- I’ve been able to sort of, you know, try these things out in a little bit smaller, you know, context.
Jim McCullough: It’s still a work, that’s still a work in progress. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Hey, let me, let me jump continents h- here for a second. Okay. And Scottish trip. I wanna hear w- uh, uh, so any reflections you had or what, what you learned or anything that, that surprised you or w- what that you’re still thinking about. Yeah. What are, what are some things that stuck with you?
Jim McCullough: Well, you know, we were visiting a lot of outdoor nurseries.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: You know, specifically Stramash’s, you know, four outdoor nurseries, and then others that, like, they were associated with through various dealings and trainings and projects and stuff.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: For one thing, just seeing, and these are, these are outdoor nurseries or preschools for, you know, us Americans.
Jim McCullough: All day, and essentially it’s, it’s sort of forest school-ish or forest kindergarten-ish in that, you know, they’re all day, like, in the same spot, no matter the weather. They’re play-based.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: But so- You know, you can just tell the kids, they have time and space and permission to play. Yeah. You
Rusty Keeler: know? Yeah. They felt very at home at that
Jim McCullough: place.
Jim McCullough: They felt very at home. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s perfect. And, you know, considering, like, a good preschool, you know, could be, you know, Grandma’s backyard, that’s a feeling that you want. Like- Yeah … you want them to feel that way. Preschools are, you know, they are becoming … All day preschools are becoming more and more of a necessity.
Jim McCullough: And, and interesting, it’s, and it’s just, it’s, it is mind-blowing when you see the … It was just a, it was an empty lot or a empty field or- Right.
Rusty Keeler: Right, right. Just planted
Jim McCullough: and built Um, in, in fact, one of them was still an empty lot. One of the four was being transformed as we, you know, were there.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: And I’m still reflecting really on
Jim McCullough: But every time I talk to somebody here about, you know, their preschool or … I’m instantly m- making th- that trip becomes a, you know, a connection and a conversation piece to sort of as something that they could, you know, you could push it a little, you know, what you’re doing or, or if they’ll say, you know, want, they want to do X, Y, or Z.
Jim McCullough: And I’m also, uh, constantly using your, um, you know, as far as space goes, ’cause more limited. I mean, that’s one thing that, that, that the Highlands had. The spaces are bigger- Yeah … than your average, uh, like, outdoor areas for a preschool.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: Especially city ones. But just, you know, you’re always very good about creating space that, that you didn’t know you had or, or looking at your fences and, and seeing if you can, you know, expand past that.
Jim McCullough: Although, I think that even Cameron, like, with the space that they have, like, I think he’s constantly trying to You know, grab
Rusty Keeler: some more land Grab
Jim McCullough: some more land. Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah, yeah
Jim McCullough: You know, but you don’t have, you know, you don’t have to… It’s nice to have all that land.
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right Uh,
Jim McCullough: and I, I do… You know, it makes me wonder, like, you know, there prob- there’s probably areas in cities that no one really thought about.
Jim McCullough: And hopefully, especially, you know, the urban neighborhoods are gonna be able to utilize that kind of land that’s not really being used.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Well, how about… Let me, let me, let me sort of wrap up or, with the question for, for listeners who are, who love this idea of what, what you’re up to with, you know, kind of the blending of play work and the adult role supporting play and nature, and the idea that, like, this, the forest, the idea that it’s, like, so open-ended.
Rusty Keeler: That purest-ness o- of you, yours comes through here of like, “Hey, we don’t know what we’re gonna do, and we’re gonna follow, we’re gonna really follow the kids.” But if they wanted to try it, what, like, what would be, what would be a simple way to, to start? Like- You know, is there some, some way that they could, something they could stop doing that would help in the step in this direction?
Rusty Keeler: Or, or what would be like a simple way to go?
Jim McCullough: Well, I love the word pilot.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Jim McCullough: Uh-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: Because, I mean, it gives you permission to fail in some ways, but, you know, really, um, start with a s- you know, a small group. I was a preschool teacher. I had this… I was already taking kids into our backwoods, you know, for our forest kindergarten program, and I, you know, so I just, I kind of asked three or four families if they would be interested.
Jim McCullough: I just wanted to see if I could do it, what would happen. And it was, you know, six kids, three… There were three people on the staff. You know, I was just, you know, going out there really and just, “We’re gonna take a walk in these woods,” and then just, and just see. Definitely if you come to a creek, you know, the kids are gonna stop.
Jim McCullough: Uh, like I quickly call what we were doing the lost art of stopping, because, you know, kids are masters of stopping and smelling the roses. They’re just not, you know, instead of roses, it’s a fallen tree.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: You know, and they’re stopping and playing on that. So really, you know, don’t worry about having every question answered, but just, you know, kind of go out there and take a walk and see, and see what happens.
Jim McCullough: I mean, like the spreading out portion that first week, and it was a younger, it was, you know, there, it was all sort of four to, mainly four to six-year-olds. So really just, just getting out there and then, like, talking about it with each other at the end of the day, and then going from there. Like, you know, just do it for a week.
Jim McCullough: You know, go ahead and say, like, “I’m gonna-” I’m gonna try this out. And the hard thing is, like, am I, like, am I doing anything when I’m just out here and not doing anything?
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh.
Jim McCullough: You know? ‘Cause sometimes, you know, the kids are just, you know, kicking around and, you know, there’s that, so that tendency to, like, let’s do X, Y, or Z.
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right. So-
Jim McCullough: And, and I think we had a… And, and this could have been b- an- you know, another person on staff, like, it was somebody’s birthday, and so they were like, “Let’s, let’s makes, use the, the sand and the…” You know, and everybody used nature loose parts, like, and made birthday cakes. You know, I think that was, like, the biggest thing that, that we did.
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right.
Jim McCullough: Um, and I guess my point with that is, you know, be your, you know, be yourself. You know, try to let the kids be themselves, and, but if you end up wanting to do something, you know, like I said, the, you know, we, uh, we played this, this game at the beginning. It was a sensory game. I think it of as, like, a sneaking game, and at some point during that week the kids wanted to play it down, you know, wherever we were.
Jim McCullough: And so they would, I would, you know, give them the blindfold and the water bottle, like, and then they would, and they would play it wherever we were. You know, there’s always gonna be, it’s a fine line, just y- y- I mean, I’m still out there You know, how much of an impression am I making on this scene? Like, but, but also at this point, you know, there’s kids that have done it for five years and gone to the s- a lot of the same places, and they’re still loving it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Jim McCullough: But surely they’re making an impression on… Like, they already know a tree that’s good to tie and climb a certain bank.
Rusty Keeler: Right,
Jim McCullough: right. They’re telling kids, “Let’s… I know we can… Let’s go do this.” So, you know, really just it’s, it’s about once saying, once, you know, something’s going that’s not, you know, not interfering on that.
Rusty Keeler: I mean, I love the idea of the pilot, just that’s- that’s giving permission to, like, try it out, see what happens, be self-reflective. And the idea of following the children, maybe this idea of like, okay, well, watch. And- and that could be taking kids to the forest, but it could also be, like, everybody who has a fenced-in play area.
Rusty Keeler: And like, well, what if you got inspired by the a- what if y- the, the yard was an adventure walk? Meaning letting kids do whatever they want and stop and, you know, not be doing things and, and, y- you know- Yeah … in some ways it’s like that, I think that’s… Y- you stand for that, just like watching the play and honoring the play and, you know, upholding it and, and know- believing that it’s im- it’s important, just the nature of the play is important.
Rusty Keeler: And, and, and, you know- For sure … yeah. And people- Yeah … bring that wherever they are. Well, Jim, thanks so much for chatting and sharing. And I know we have- Thanks for having me … we, yeah, we have some- Yeah … we have a bonus of some pictures of memes, ’cause you’re also a Play Nature meme master. So maybe we have a bonus, we could look at those real quick here.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, let’s do it. Maybe we’ll, we’ll sign off for now for the conversation. No, I’d love that. And 12th
Jim McCullough: birthday’s coming up this summer. It’d be great to have Rusty Keeler down here.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, there we go. All right.
Jim McCullough: Celebrating, celebrating 12 years old of adventure walking.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Love it.
Rusty Keeler: All right. Thanks for listening Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at playnaturepodcast@gmail.com. You know I like talking about this stuff, and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide.
Rusty Keeler: Fun stuff in there. And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard, or loose parts, or saying yes to risky play, my favorite motto is, “Dream big, start small, and never stop.” Oh, yeah. Woo, woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right, have fun out there
