Louise Licznerski : Child development’s the same wherever you are in the world, and children need to play wherever you are in the world. Look at what you guys have got around you and start from there. Don’t try and force something that’s not there
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler, and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play, nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen Hi, Louise.
Louise Licznerski : How are you?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, great, great. Great. How are you doing?
Louise Licznerski : Yeah, good, good. Yeah, really good. Really good. Lots of exciting stuff happening, so really good.
Rusty Keeler: Yay. Well, I’m excited to, to jump in- Yeah … jump in with you and hear about what’s exciting that’s going on. And I’ll just start by saying that I was… You know, so I saw you at the symposium. That’s where I first- Yeah … met you, and was aware of your work, and I just love your enthusiasm and energy. And yeah, the world is changing because you’re rock and rolling out there.
Rusty Keeler: Oh. Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Okay.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. I’ll go with that. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, why don’t I read your bio, and then- Yeah … we can just, we can just jump in.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Louise Lisnerski, an educator- … outdoor learning advocate and entrepreneur. After training as a teacher and working in a variety of educational settings, she became passionate about creating more inclusive and nurturing ways for children to learn and thrive.
Rusty Keeler: Together with her husband, Paul, she founded Little Bugs Outdoor Nurseries, which provides child-led, nature-based early years education. She’s the founder of Wild Bugs, a school-aged outdoor provision that offers children opportunities to learn, play, and develop through meaningful experiences in nature.
Rusty Keeler: Alongside that, she serves as the director of the Scottish Outdoor Learning Association, SOLA, helping to champion outdoor learning and play across Scotland. She also f- founded We Foragers, which focuses on bringing locally sourced, sustainable whole foods and food education to children. And looking ahead, she’s excited to launch Prairie and Pine, a training company that will provide Scottish-based and international training opportunities for educators and practitioners who want to deepen their understanding of outdoor learning, play, and child development.
Rusty Keeler: Across all her work, she’s driven by a belief that children flourish when they are given the freedom to play, explore, take risks, and connect with the natural world.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah. There I am.
Rusty Keeler: There it is. There she is.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: So-
Louise Licznerski : Yeah …
Rusty Keeler: yes, so you are on a mission.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah, a mission indeed. Yeah, a mission. A mission. I, I like to view it as an adventure, um, and that anything is possible, right?
Louise Licznerski : Anything’s possible.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you are, yes, you are pushing the needle in so many different, in so many different ways. Um, you know, so I’m excited to talk to you about all those different things, from the, the outdoor nature and the preschools, and then the school-age stuff, the f- the food stuff. I think then also, like, the collective, uh, the voice.
Rusty Keeler: I think that to, to really make change in what’s going on- Yeah … and then what you’re training. But why don’t you just take us back to the, like, the beginning. How, how did you start on this- Yeah … and where, yeah, and where did it
Louise Licznerski : go? Well- Yeah … like you say, that in a previous life, you know, a- as a, as a child learning in the Scottish education system, I always felt that it wasn’t well developed for children who like to think outside the box, and I was certainly one of those children.
Louise Licznerski : Um, had dyslexic tendencies. Um, I was never, you know, identified as dyslexic until I actually got to university stage, and I, and I watched myself and my youngest brother really find education difficult in Scotland. But, you know, we had those tendencies back then, 20, 30 years ago, to say, “Oh, well, you know, they’re not c- they’re not clever.”
Louise Licznerski : So I always wanted to do teaching in some way, but I never felt clever enough to do that. So I, I actually left, uh, school with reasonable grades and headed off to university. And in a past life, I, I did business management and consumer studies and retail studies, and worked for a, a large chain department store.
Louise Licznerski : And part, like, you know, working in that, I was thinking, I’m not fulfilled. This is not what I want to do. So I went back and, and did a post-grad in Scotland, which you do for one year and, um, and then you, you’re a qualified teacher. Um, and oh, it just made me feel so alive- Yeah … with these kids, and it was just so great.
Louise Licznerski : And my first placement was in a real area of deprivation and I had, um, 23 kids, and out of those 23 kids, 18 of them had additional support needs and English as an additional language. Okay. Um, so I had a lot of Polish children, I had a lot of Chinese children. So it wasn’t even just one language. I had to like, really like, you know, be diverse about the way that I was teaching these kids.
Louise Licznerski : And actually the best way that I found to do that was to take them outside because nature’s one language. Um- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … and we would go into woodland and we would learn phonics by using sticks like wands, like Harry Potter. And, and we would, you know, we would talk about the English words for a leaf or a flower and, and all those aspects of learning outdoors in that woodland.
Louise Licznerski : And those children just thrived and I loved it. I loved every second of being able to take those kids outside. Um, and also for them being from an area of deprivation, a lot of them didn’t have gardens. They stayed in like apartments, flats. So, um, so yeah. And then I, I then went to another primary school, um, and with older children, um, and had, uh, a long list of complex needs in that class as well, children that didn’t really cope with being indoors.
Louise Licznerski : Um, so again, took them outdoors and then moved on to, I had my children, my own children, and then moved on to a learning support role within the council as well. Um, and all I would do at, every day at the desk, Rusty, is I would sit and do referrals to like pediatricians about why this child has ADHD. And actually, you know, at the time I had just discovered Richard Louv and I was looking a lot about nature deficit disorder, and I was like, no, we just need to get these kids outdoors.
Louise Licznerski : Mm-hmm. So it was really quite frowned upon because I wasn’t meeting the tracking and monitoring in a typical school way, in a typical Scottish school way. You know, there was lots of language that I think was like really affecting young people at the time and their ability to do things, um, in the terms of like, you know, oh, well they’re, they’re not very bright.
Louise Licznerski : I remember one teacher saying to me, Well, they’re not exactly gonna set the, the heather alight. But then when I took these kids outside, they were incredible. The system for me wasn’t changing fast enough in the way that I wanted to change it. So one day I came home and I said to my husband, Paul, I think we should look at younger years and I think we should open an outdoor nursery.
Louise Licznerski : Um- And he was like, “Okay.” Amazingly, “Okay.” Okay. And he, he’s like a BT engineer. He has no educational background, but he’s very practical. Mm-hmm. So yeah, so we went round and the first place for me to hit up was the Scouting Association, and they had headquarters just up the road from where I stay, and they were delighted to lease us a bit of land.
Louise Licznerski : Um, and we had some hurdles to get over and some red tape in terms of risk and, um, transportation to the site, et cetera, and just what a traditional nursery The planning regulations weren’t in line for what a nursery should look like, so we had to be really clever about it and problem-solve. So we opened our doors, and I remember standing in the woods.
Louise Licznerski : We opened in, um, at the beginning of May. I remember standing in the woods in July crying and saying to my father-in-law, “What have I done? I, I’ve employed all these practitioners. I, I can’t afford them. We don’t have enough children.” And that was July, and by the time January came, we had 47 children and we were completely full.
Rusty Keeler: Oh my gosh. And
Louise Licznerski : that was
Rusty Keeler: it. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know
Louise Licznerski : why I was
Rusty Keeler: ever worried. Well-
Louise Licznerski : But,
Rusty Keeler: right. So with
Louise Licznerski : that came- You took a risk.
Rusty Keeler: You took a
Louise Licznerski : big risk … I took a risk. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, we took a huge risk, and then with that came our second site in South Queensferry. Um, a different council area and a lot of barriers again with that.
Louise Licznerski : Um, uh, but again, uh, here we were, and that slowly but surely started to fill up too. Um, so yeah. And what we were seeing from these children were children who were straight out of COVID, who, whose parents were taking them to traditional indoor settings, and they were having to close the door on them. You know, they were in- put in a room, and then the door shut, and their parents were on the other side.
Louise Licznerski : And these kids were, like, freaking out ’cause these people were the only people they had seen for, like, a year, two years of their short lives. Mm-hmm. Whereas at, at Little Bugs, parents were encouraged to come in, stay and play with their children, and that instantly put everybody at ease and instantly calmed everybody down.
Louise Licznerski : And then we were, you know, as… That’s us been open for five years now at Fordell, and it’s been a whirlwind. But what we’ve seen is just children, the regulation and, um, and emotional wellbeing of our children and our parents, our families that are coming into our setting is just like nothing I have ever seen before.
Louise Licznerski : And what’s followed on beautifully from that is we’ve proven a model that works so successfully, and now local authorities and other settings are coming to us saying, “Can you show us the same? And w- what are you doing? Can we replicate this in our settings?” And, and we are saying, “Yeah, we’ll show you,” because ultimately it’s only the children that benefit, right?
Louise Licznerski : Mm-hmm. And if we can spread it, then yeah, it’s infectious.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s part of it too, of like you showing, you know, trying out your idea. Okay, does this work? Will this be beneficial? You believe it, you know, we believe it. Uh, but then to see it in wor- work, and then the idea of like, yeah, let’s get this, let’s get this out there.
Rusty Keeler: Let’s- Yeah … let’s make those changes. So okay, so then what do you see when children come in? What are they like? Maybe, you know, you talk about, like, dysregulation or, you know, kids having a hard time. W- what’s, what are they like before they come? What, what are they like in it? What happens in Little Bugs?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And then, yeah, what changes?
Louise Licznerski : I think, you know, we, we take children from two right the way up until five years old for nursery settings, and a lot of other settings won’t take two-year-olds. Okay. But for me, I feel like your emotional intelligence starts way younger at three, right? So to me it’s like, right, let’s, let’s set this up properly.
Louise Licznerski : If these children are, um, need that emotional regulation to come in. So what we’re seeing is a lot of our two-year-olds and three-year-olds that are coming for their, uh, preschool years, they’re, they’re coming in upset because they’re leaving their parents. Some of them come in really enthusiastically, but some of them come, still come in, in upset, and that’s just, you know, that’s the separation anxiety part of it.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah. But we’re, we’re allowing parents to come in, and then we don’t have those four walls, so children don’t feel contained. So they start off small and, and investigating small areas of, of our base camp, and then they start to get bigger and bigger and they start wandering. And for, for our children, that has given them the sense of freedom to know if I’m not happy in this space or if this space is getting too busy for me, I can step out and I can go to a quieter space.
Louise Licznerski : Um, so I would say the space aspect of it is really important. And at both our sites we’ve got what we call base camps. So these are fenced off areas that are completely outdoors but are completely secure, and they’re chestnut pale fencing so it’s, it’s nice looking. It’s not like a prison. And, uh, and I think our families feel happy with that because they know that their children are safe but still outside.
Louise Licznerski : So, you know, if, if a child is feeding from their parents’ anxieties, then that’s not gonna help them. So if we can get those parents settled and, and trust and build a relationship with them, that, that then supports those children. Then they start, you know, there’s a lot of pros- pro-perceptual play, playing alongside each other.
Louise Licznerski : Then the friendship groups happen. And then what starts to happen is the energy comes out. So we’ll go through a period of those kids running around crazy, but they’re free to do so. They’re kids, and they’re burning off that energy. And then they can regulate themselves and know when it’s time for them to have a rest period, and they’ll maybe fancy going and engaging in an activity or practitioners are there to have discussions with them.
Louise Licznerski : And then the curiosity element comes out. So everything that we do is learning through play. It’s completely child-led. But we still do have some starter activities. So children are way more inquisitive, less shy, and are, because they know that they can step out at any time and they don’t have to engage, they don’t have to, you know, there’s, the expectation is taken off of them.
Louise Licznerski : So it’s, it’s a really relaxing place, and it really allows them to evolve and be who they want to be whilst learning from other age groups. So we have mixed ages, so all the children are together from two right the way up to five. Oh, dear. So having those mixed age groups, the, the younger ones are learning from the older ones, and the older ones are nurturing the younger ones, and it’s just such a beautiful sight to
Rusty Keeler: see.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Love it. Yes. Yep. Yeah. And that’s different than normal education, typical education. Yep.
Louise Licznerski : Yep, absolutely, for sure. So then, so we have that aspect of that’s the kind of daily running. Then what’s really interesting is that when the seasons start to change and how the children engage in the environment because what’s happening is they are going through natural transitions, but they don’t realize they’re transitioning through everything.
Louise Licznerski : So when a child… One of the biggest things as an educator working in the school system, one of the most challenging things were, were those transitions to, to different spaces or to different subjects, and that’s where we would see distressed behavior a- as a teacher trying to get children to move from one aspect to the other.
Louise Licznerski : But what’s happening even in just being in nature in that seasonal is the seasonal change happens so subtly that they don’t even notice, and then you start to see them working out, you know, “Oh, it’s really sunny outside, so I can take my jumper off and I am enjoying water play,” or, “It’s really cold outside, and if I leave this puddle of water overnight, I know I’m coming in next again morning it’s gonna be frozen.”
Louise Licznerski : Mm-hmm. So it, it’s a, it’s about those transitions and those learning opportunities, and I think that really supports wellbeing and their nervous systems as well and really keeps them calm.
Rusty Keeler: I love that.
Louise Licznerski : And then you’ve got the aspect of mud, you know, where they’re like, everyone freaks out about mud. And I’m like, no, they have the best immune systems ever, these kids.
Louise Licznerski : Like, they never get sick. Um, and if they are off, it’s probably because they’ve either grazed or bumped or, you know. It, it’s very rarely like things like chickenpox. We don’t get outbreaks to chickenpox. We’ve had a few bugs, but never cold and flu like you get in an indoor setting. So parents love us for that.
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That’s amazing. It’s like you have the, the k- the, the connection of both the microbes and getting in and all that, all the good stuff. Yeah. And then of course no walls and fresh air- Mm-hmm … and, and all that. But gosh, you know, just going back, I love that idea of the, the nature, connecting with nature and the, the rhythms of it, the changes of it, the- Mm-hmm
Rusty Keeler: the s- the cycles of the season. And, and- Yeah … just that idea of like we are, we are part of that. Like, we are, we have our own cycles, and we have, go through our own changes. Yeah. And the idea that putting children in those rhythms is natural- Mm-hmm … and beautiful and, and healthy, and, and they can be in those rhythms.
Rusty Keeler: I, I’ve been thinking a lot about the idea of earth speed-
Louise Licznerski : Absolutely
Rusty Keeler: And yeah, so you were just putting them right in there compared
Louise Licznerski : to- Yeah, and even- …
Rusty Keeler: four walls and fluorescent lights.
Louise Licznerski : Exactly. That’s exactly what I was about to say. They can work out, uh, even when it’s wintertime here, obviously it, it, when they’re coming in it’s dark.
Louise Licznerski : So they like to come into a cozy space and they can regulate their sp- theirself. They come into the yurt, they’ve got a fire, they have a bowl of porridge, then as soon as it starts getting light, they’re out again. They’re like chickens. Do you know, chickens go into their coop when the sun sets. And they’ll watch our chickens in our setting and say, “Oh, they’re going in ’cause it’s bedtime.”
Louise Licznerski : So it’s like they’re able- … to naturally, you know, go with the rhythm and I, and I think that’s so good- Wow … for, for your exposure to sunlight and, you know, and actually your body understanding those natural rhythms of it’s, it’s morning time, it’s nighttime, it’s getting later because it’s getting darker, and they take themselves in or they know that it’s time to go and watch the stars, or they know what nocturnal animals are coming out.
Louise Licznerski : We’re so lucky to have those, you know, nature aspects there, bats and things, and owls, that they know when they come out. So they, they start to h- it’s a natural rhythm. It’s, it’s a natural rhythm.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. And, and just to think of like how, how that is for the im- uh, immune s- immune system, the nervous system-
Louise Licznerski : Yeah
Rusty Keeler: uh, and, and the learning and the growing. Um, it’s funny because I remember you talked about in your talk about the education system being outdated. So that- Yeah … I mean, that’s a big topic right there and a big thought. But, but the idea of like what you’re, what we’re talking about here is actually- Before that, it’s like- Yeah
Rusty Keeler: you’re, we’re talking about bringing the ancient to the- Yeah … to the future, to the now. Yep. You know, whatever the education system was, factory, you know, getting kids all together- Mm-hmm … and teaching them the, you know, the ABCs and whatever for a certain time period, but it’s not like now. We need something deeper, more human.
Louise Licznerski : Absolutely.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : And I think, you know, if we look at those wellbeing aspects of our young people, not just in early years, but right the way through primary school, we’re putting them in classrooms with fluorescent lights, and we’re wondering why they’re depressed, do you know? Yeah. And, like, their SAD disorder is a thing.
Louise Licznerski : Like, the seasonal deficit, you know, disorder is a thing, and I just think, do you know, if more… Even our staff just see how, how great it is for their immune sy- They’re not in fight or flight, and they’re not exhausted. They- Yeah … they c- they work through the darker months of the year, but they’re not completely exhausted because they’re able to settle in with the natural rhythms of what we should be doing.
Louise Licznerski : And I think that just takes a massive pressure off the nervous system and helps them regulate emotion hugely.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. And they get to be outside. They get to be outside- Yeah … a- and, and experiencing whatever light is there in the darkest time of the year- Yeah … as opposed to, like, if you’re in the classroom, and then by the time you get out of school, and then it’s dark- Yeah
Rusty Keeler: and you had no time outside. Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah. Absolutely.
Rusty Keeler: Huh. Yeah. Okay, so you saw this for the, for the wee ones.
Louise Licznerski : Yes.
Rusty Keeler: But, and then what happened next? You just thought… Was it parents? Was it you thinking, “Wait, we gotta just keep this going for the older kids”? Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : So I, I guess when I stepped into education, so I had never really worked in nursery before I opened up an outdoor nursery.
Louise Licznerski : I had been primary one- Okay … uh, which is like grade one, you know, kindergarten stage over at you- over in the States. So I’d, I’d, that’s the lowest level I’d worked at. So for me, if I could have possibly opened up an outdoor primary school first, that’s probably what I would’ve done. But the, the facilities were there for our youngest children.
Louise Licznerski : I thought, “I’m gonna go with it. I’m gonna see how that goes.” And then what was happening was children– I saw how great this was, so I started to try and edge into local schools and with colleagues that I’d worked with before. So we ran lots of projects with teachers going in, and I suppose this is where the frustration comes from from the system because I’m a private entity going in and going, “Here you go.
Louise Licznerski : This is what I can do to support you.” And they took it, and as soon as I withdrew my support because I felt like they were ready to keep running with it, it just stopped. Mm-hmm. So I thought, actually, I’m gonna have to– I think the– you can fight a system, but until you show people how to do it and they, they watch you do it and they watch it be successful, then, like, that little light bulb goes off and they’re like, “Yeah, we’ll, we’ll run with that.”
Louise Licznerski : So we had some children over at our South Queensferry site whose parents were like, “Oh, can you…” laughing and joking, “Can you not open up an outdoor school?” I was like, “Listen, I’m working on it.” Yep. They believed me. Yeah, they believed
Rusty Keeler: me. They’re like, “Yeah, but yeah.”
Louise Licznerski : No, I
Louise Licznerski : am. It’s like, damn. Totally. Nobody questioned.
Rusty Keeler: Right.
Louise Licznerski : And then so we took, we took two or three children that weren’t coping in school, and they did flexi school with us. So they, they attended traditional schooling for part of the week, and then they came to us. So it started at three children. Then this year it moved to eight children on a Friday.
Louise Licznerski : And then next year we h- already had 16 children enrolled on a Friday. Mm. And I was like, “My team, let’s push it.” And they were like, “So we’ve got this mantra at Wild Bugs, and it’s go big or go home.” So we’re going big. Um, so we’ve now, we’re now opened up spaces for primary one to three, so children five to eight, on a Wednesday, Thursday, Friday at, at Wild Bugs.
Louise Licznerski : Okay. And they are, those three days are almost full with 16 children at- Wow … each point.
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Louise Licznerski : So then, then a, a few weeks ago I thought, “Right, why don’t we open up primary four to seven?” So the eight to 12-year-olds. And we had our open evening for that last night, and it was a really great success. So those children are gonna start coming on a Monday.
Louise Licznerski : So already we’ve filled four days, and schools are actually quite happy to allow children to access that learning because we can prove what learning’s taking place. So we’re tracking and monitoring using the curriculum. We hand over the evidence to either the school if the child is still at school, or if they’re home educated, the evidence goes to the parents.
Louise Licznerski : So we’re still tracking and monitoring. We’re still linking everything to the Curriculum for Excellence, but what we’re doing is, is making things equal for children, and that’s not by putting in, you know, every child has a pencil. It’s by a- allowing that child to have different ways of using that pencil or that stick or, you know, y- we’re giving them the tool, but then we’re letting them use it in their own way.
Louise Licznerski : And I think that’s quite refreshing for parents, and a lot of our children are now able to cope better going to school for the three to four days that they’re going with knowing that they have Wild Bugs at the end of the week or partway through their week. So they’re- Mm-hmm … again, that’s their emotional regulation, and they’re happy with that.
Louise Licznerski : So yeah, it’s, it’s gone really successfully. I mean, you know, I, I spoke when we, when we had the thing with Stramash, um, and, and the conference with Stramash. You know, the, the reason that early years is taking off, and outdoors and early years is taking off, is because we’ve got our funded hours. So parents have been given that choice, and they don’t have to pay for that, and I think that has just absolutely unlocked a door- Mm-hmm
Louise Licznerski : and swung it right open for them to walk through that and experience something that many pa- parents and families want for their children, and many children need And I think- Could you just describe, ’cause over h- here in
Rusty Keeler: the States we don’t, we don’t- Yeah … do it like that. So can you just quick, in a nutshell, describe what that funding is for parents?
Louise Licznerski : So, so the Scottish government give, um, every three-year-old, um, 1,140 hours of funded childcare. Yeah. It comes with its problems. Not a- it’s good, but it’s not, it’s- Sure … it’s really, it’s really great that we can offer alternative learning environments through, through that.
Louise Licznerski : So we’re a funded provider. We’re a private company-funded provider, but children can also use that in their local authority nursery as well, which is normally attached to a school and run by the council, and they can use it with a child minder as well. So if a child- Oh … feels like they need that, that wholesomeness, I guess what you guys have got, like, under 12 children, like, home daycare, don’t you?
Louise Licznerski : So that’s- Mm-hmm … like our child minder here.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, okay.
Louise Licznerski : So, um, so they can use that there as well. So if a child feels, if a parent feels that their child would benefit from more of a home care, then their funding can still be used there, and that’s really great. Th- the way that the funding is distributed is a whole other topic, and it, it’s putting the private sector under a mass amount of pressure, and it’s a, it’s currently being explored by the Scottish government.
Louise Licznerski : But what it is giving the ability to our families and our young people is to vote with their feet, and for parents to say, “I don’t want the traditional education system- Yeah … anymore. I want something alternative.” And Rusty, I honestly think that if they funded schooling in this way, there would be a mass exodus of the current system- Wow
Louise Licznerski : and, and everything would change. Wow. Everything would change. And I would say that is the only barrier to the school-age outdoor learning that we are providing, is that parents have to privately pay for that.
Rusty Keeler: R- right, right. Huh. That’s amazing. Okay.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Huh. To ch- to be able to choose to, to th- Yeah … to this form that we’re, we’re, we’re seeing is so beneficial and, you know.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Well, w- so with, I guess with Sola, I guess we’re, uh, maybe we’re getting here to talk about change and things- Mm-hmm … you know? Um- Yes … yes. You talked about y- having a collective voice. Um- Yeah … finding your people, having a collective voice, going bigger, going home, and not staying- Yeah … quiet, quiet.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: So yeah- Yeah … tell me about that. That, so there’s a whole other track with you. Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah. So, um, uh, you know, when we first opened up our nurseries, there was lots of barriers in terms of what I’ve already spoken about, about what a traditional nursery setting looks like and how that looks, you know, to a council who have planning, or in the States it’s zoning permission.
Louise Licznerski : So we have to go to our council and say, “We’re opening up this nursery, and, uh, we need planning permission in order to open that up.” And you put in this really long, expensive application, and it takes about a year for it all to come through, and it’s very stressful. But the, the planners in that department are sitting looking at you like you’re a traditional nursery and, and trying to explain to them that actually, no, we’re fully outdoors and we don’t need a square footage of room space because we have fields and forests, and I can measure those for you, but, you know.
Louise Licznerski : So that, that in itself was a challenge, and that was the, one of the biggest barriers that faced us when we first started. Um- So on that track I thought, I can’t be alone in this. So I started to reach out to people, um, who also had outdoor nurseries or that were in the outdoor sector. So Thrive Outdoors, Mhairi Ferris, absolute legend, um, was so helpful, um, and pointed to guidance that the Scottish Government had provided.
Louise Licznerski : So our general Scottish Government, the way that it sits, and our Care Inspectorate and Education Scotland have created so many documents to support this way of learning, and you just need to know where they are and how to access them. Mm. But it’s like a, it’s like a booklet of how to. It’s like a dummy’s guide for outdoor nurseries.
Louise Licznerski : So Mhairi pointed me in the direction of this, and then I started to reach out to other outdoor nurseries, and what we were finding was a lot of common issues that we had. So things like guidance was gonna be set up, um, because we’re regulated by the Care Inspectorate here and Education Scotland in some instances.
Louise Licznerski : So guidance is being set up and it only takes into account indoor settings, and we’re saying, “Well, what about the outdoor settings?” And collectively coming together from different parts of the country has, has been just so incredible and so positive, and it’s got us a seat at the table with the people that make the decisions.
Louise Licznerski : Mm. And now we’re able to say, “Well, I have this problem in the Central Belt of Scotland, and Cameron at Stramash has this problem up in the Highlands. Like, this is a, this is a generic problem across Scotland. What are we gonna do?” Yeah. And there’s just so many answers to that, um, and so much support, and you don’t feel alone.
Louise Licznerski : And sometimes it’s just silly things like problem-solving, oh, I don’t have running water, and somebody saying, “Well, we use a YETI tank that keeps the ta- the water warm for like five hours, and we just take it up into the forest.” And, and it just starts to make your life so much easier ’cause you’re not reinventing the wheel.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, you’re stronger together. People who have, you know- Absolutely … done different thing. You, you have knowledge that they don’t, they have knowledge that you don’t. Yeah. And then the, and then the collective voice as a, as a force. People can feel alone in all this stuff or bumping their heads against things.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when we first started, there was only 25 nurseries, outdoor nurseries. In the last five years we think it’s gone up to about 70 if we take into account satellite sites, and what I mean by that is nurseries that have a physical building but then take their children off site for days at a time.
Louise Licznerski : That’s what we call a satellite site here. So by collectively coming together, the movement grows as well because people go, “Oh, well, they can do that, and that’s actually just down the road from me. I’m gonna visit that.” And then it’s, you know, it’s about putting the voice out, and collectively we, we shout louder.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that’s, I think that’s good for, for everybody to remember, our listeners here that, who might feel like they’re doing it by themselves. But really it’s like we wanna form community. Yeah. We wanna form these collectives and both for ourselves, but then also to make, to make greater change.
Rusty Keeler: And if there are- Yeah … policy gaps that need to be filled, it’s like that idea of like you all rising together and having, I love that, the seat at the table because you’re a voice- Yeah … and you’re experienced and yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Yeah, it’s great. It’s good fun.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Let’s, let’s move on to food and foraging- Yeah
Rusty Keeler: ’cause that’s another angle here- I know … that, uh, that you’re doing that I love. Yes. I
Louise Licznerski : know.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. So that’s, I mean, so there is, there’s not often a lot of talk about food, I know in the States. You know, where, where does school food come from? What are children eating? How, how is nutrition, uh, you know, just like being outside, how is nutrition a part of the whole system?
Rusty Keeler: And regulation and deregulation in our, in our health. And gosh, I remember I did a, a, a conference in Denmark years ago, and it was, uh, nature play, adventure play. And one day we went to a, uh, elementary school, primary school, to just see what they’re doing in their outdoor classrooms, in their nature and all that.
Rusty Keeler: And then we had a nice meal. We all, all the, you know, people at the symposium were all out having this nice meal. And it was so nice. We’re like, “Oh my gosh, is this catered?” It was like, I mean, there was like brie, and there was, you know- … all this fruit, vegetables, so healthy, so delicious. And they’re like, “No, it’s not catered.
Rusty Keeler: This is, this is the normal school food.” Yeah. And it was like, oh my gosh. Uh, yeah, yeah. Kids should be eating good things and know where it comes from and be connected to it all. Yeah. So how did you get into that, and what are you doing with it, and yeah, where is that going?
Louise Licznerski : Yeah. So part of it’s from a personal experience.
Louise Licznerski : So my son has quite a severe nut allergy, but what also comes with that is his, he has bad skin, so he has really bad eczema. And I’m not one for putting, I don’t enjoy a steroid cream for my children. Yeah. Um, so I’m like, “Right, what alternatives can we look into here?” And then when I started reading the back of packets, and my husband Paul was like, “Right, we need to cut out some ultra-processed food here.
Louise Licznerski : Like, we need to start feeding our own kids, and maybe Angus’ skin will get better.” So that’s what we did. Mm-hmm. And I was like, you know, as we went on our own personal journey, and then, you know, working with Little Bugs, and we have a community gardener at Little Bugs called Grant, and he has his own sanctuary garden and a big project in Dunfermline that helps adults with mental health issues.
Louise Licznerski : And you know, gardening can really be therapeutic, again, for your wellbeing. We work with him to teach our children skills about growing and reciprocal relationships of nature already. That’s what we were already doing- Mm … at Bugs. And we were, we were saying to them things like, you know, we’ve got our, our mantra of, um, four caring responsibilities, and, and one of those caring aspects is we say to our kids, we take care of all the things.
Louise Licznerski : Um, and part of that was we were telling them, you know, we need to water the plants, or like the plants aren’t gonna grow, and they’re not gonna give us food. And then we’ll be hungry. Or if you rip that plant from the roots and throw it at your friend, then you’re not, you’re not taking care of that plant, and that plant’s not gonna provide anything for us.
Louise Licznerski : So by doing that, we were already introducing the reciprocal behaviors and the life cycle aspect of it- And just general respect, and it was helping with behavior management a lot of the time as well And getting the kids engaged in that. So we were already working with Grant in doing that. And then at that time, um, the infamous Juliet Donaldson had brought out her documentation on Out to Play, which Scottish government and came specter with her and Thrive, um, Out to Play, Caring for Our Outdoor Spaces.
Louise Licznerski : And that was talking a lot about learning for sustainability. And I thought, you know, what is the best way we can teach our children about being sustainable is about looking at the food that is grown from Scottish larger, from all the areas that are around us. And we are on a game estate in, uh, Hopetoun.
Louise Licznerski : And for you guys over in the USA, Hopetoun Estate is where they filmed Outlander. So it’s like, it’s like mass, you know, fields, forest, and they shoot deer there, and they, they manage deer and they harvest them, and then they go to local butchers, and then they also keep pheasants, and there’s a lot of pheasant shooting and things happening as well.
Louise Licznerski : And then we’ve got local farms growing organic produce and, and just non-organic produce. So I, I’m like, right, we need to start teaching our kids about food miles. So, you know, uh, here’s a banana. Where did that come from? Food miles. So we- Food miles, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So how many miles- Wow … has that banana traveled?
Louise Licznerski : How many miles has that avocado traveled? That’s not from our country. So it’s okay to have that, but what effect is that having on the environment? Mm-hmm. And why is it sometimes so expensive as well? So again, we’re adding in the element of, of money there. And then looking, you know, from another aspect, so we started doing that, and we had, uh, maps up in our kitchen to show the children where things were coming from in the, in the world and in Scotland particularly.
Louise Licznerski : And then we started with a learning for sustainability board in our setting that said, “Oh, it’s July. It’s strawberry season, so that’s why we’ve got so many strawberries. Should we be having- if strawberries aren’t in season in July, where are they coming from?” And those food miles. So it was giving children the view of the, of the wider world, um- Yeah
Louise Licznerski : as well. And we had so many food aversions, of children coming in who were like, “I’m not eating that.” Or like, you know, and, and, or their parents, it mostly came from parents, like, “Oh no, they won’t eat that.” And I’m like, “Well, if you sit them down with their friends at a table and their friends are eating it, you’re damn sure they started eating it.”
Louise Licznerski : So that worked out really well. So that, that, this was all really great, and then I looked at our lunch provision and I was like, our lunch provision isn’t following learning for sustainability, and it isn’t following, you know, our whole ethos of reciprocal relationships in nature. So we reached out to one of our friends, uh, Vas, who was at the time working in the game butcher industry, but he is a qualified chef as well.
Louise Licznerski : And we said to him, “What do you think about this? Like, could we start using venison and potentially pheasant and other, you know, fish or we, we use wild boar as well. Could we start using that in our dishes? Could we start using seasonal veg? Could we start working with community gardens so these kids are- understanding, you know, they’re, they’re grown a courgette and then the next again week it’s, it’s on their plate and they understand.
Louise Licznerski : He’s like, “Yeah, let’s do it.” So yeah, so we started We Foragers, and that whole aspect of, of, you know, cutting out, um, ultra-processed foods. And I knew from the research that I had done in my time working as an additional support needs teacher that you are what you eat. And people would say to me, “Oh, this kid, yeah, he’s got ADHD.”
Louise Licznerski : I was like, “Yeah, ’cause you’re giving him Frosties and a family pack of Haribo on his way to school. He’s hyper off the sugar. No wonder he can’t sit and do the math.” Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Jeez.
Louise Licznerski : So, so I, I needed to prove that as well. Oh. So we started… I know, it’s crazy. We started giving these kids this food, and they were engaging with it amazingly.
Louise Licznerski : They were eating it. Like, the kids were eating, like, ve- and they’re still eating it, venison bolognese. Wild boar tagine is, like, one of their favorites. It’s crazy. Parents are like that, “This is like a Michelin Star restaurant.” Yeah. It’s, it’s crazy. But what our chef has also cleverly done is he is bringing in dishes that are traditionally Scottish, but he’s also adding in French cul- culinary culture, Italian culture, Indian culture.
Louise Licznerski : Ah. So all of a sudden they’re seeing that we can use our ingredients that we grow in this country, and we can make it, you know, like an international dish.
Rusty Keeler: Wow.
Louise Licznerski : And their behavior, like, so we’ve, we’ve just launched this in, um, at our own nurseries in October last year, and the behavior and the, again, emotional regulation of our children because they weren’t crashing on sugar or any other additive, they are so much settled.
Louise Licznerski : They are so happy. They’re so much more engaged. They’re fuller- Wow. Wow … fuller for longer, so we’re giving them lots of hearty beans. And, and then, you know, it, it means that they’re more confident in their play, and they’re not up, getting upset, so the staff have less pressure of dealing with upset children because they know that these children are hungry.
Louise Licznerski : And everything’s just come together so beautifully to the point now where that our chef is coming into our own nursery settings, and he went foraging for wild garlic last month, was, was a lesson. And he brought, uh, he took the kids out, foraged for wild garlic, brought them back to our base camp, and they made homemade pasta.
Louise Licznerski : So, you know, from scratch. Wow. And then- Wow … yeah, and then that’s now bleeding out to other nurseries as well. So, um, a lot of other nurseries are, are taking our food provision too- Yeah … which is really cool.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Oh my gosh, so amazing. Will you create the world, uh, education curriculum and system in just for all of us?
Rusty Keeler: I don’t know. Could you just set, get it, get in place and- Yeah. Well, okay, let’s, let’s just kind of, uh, maybe end on vision. Now, the, uh- Yeah … each one of these things is a full podcast, is a full… Is, uh, but yeah, so what, what is your vision? What are you, what are you working towards? Oh. What would, in, like, in 20 years, what would you have, like- like to see have happened, and then also like what can we all do?
Rusty Keeler: What are, what are, what, what would you like to, you know- Yeah … what, what advice do you give to people as a part of that also?
Louise Licznerski : Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : So I would say the vision for 20 years’ time is to have, um, outdoor schooling as a pr- as an option, like an outdoor nursery daycare is in many countries. Affordable, accessible for parents.
Louise Licznerski : That, that is the vision. I’ll start in Scotland, but the vision for me is definitely international, and to move, you know, to me, children are children wherever you are in the world. Yeah. And, um, child development’s the same wherever you are in the world, and children need to play wherever you are in the world.
Louise Licznerski : The, the changing factors of that are weather, politics, landscape, you know, but actually you should be learning from your own landscape. So I would say my biggest bit of advice to everybody else is look at what you guys have got around you and start from there. Don’t try and force something that’s not there.
Louise Licznerski : Um, we’re so lucky, you know, in Scotland that we have like all these beautiful, uh, resources that we can use, but we can’t, there’s, there’s a- there’s times where it’s really cold here, really wet here, so we have to put things in place to support the children’s learning there. Equally, if you were somewhere, um, you know, that was really hot, then y- make sure you’ve got shade, make sure you’ve got downtime.
Louise Licznerski : Work with nature instead of against nature, and don’t try and force stuff. Think outside the box and challenge the system at, at all levels wherever you can. If you don’t feel something is right, challenge it and, and you know, manipulate it into a way that is right for you and your children. But yeah, I, I think, you know, with Prairie and Pine, that’s definitely where we’re going.
Louise Licznerski : We’re trying to spread the word to other educators, not just in Scotland, but right across the world, that this has worked in our country. Our children are the same, child development’s the same, so why couldn’t it work in your setting?
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so you are training. You’re, you’re also providing training and-
Louise Licznerski : Yeah
Rusty Keeler: I don’t know, coaching or w- what’s that, what’s that like? How can people- Yeah … where would people tap your energy and resources?
Louise Licznerski : So we are just about to launch Prairie & Pine, um, that will be launching at the end of summer. So i- it’s a bit of a hidden secret just now. But we will, we are running in-person training, so, uh, on forest kindergarten fire, that typical stuff.
Louise Licznerski : We are also generating some food courses, so how to prepare healthy snacks, um, how to learn for sustainability and how to grow for sustainability, and yeah, a whole plethora of courses on that as well. So that’s our, our main focus for just now, and eco- some ecology courses as well, not just Scottish ecology.
Louise Licznerski : But yeah, I’m really excited because I’m actually heading over to the States. Um, I’m attending the Nature Alliance Conference in San Antonio- Ah … uh, next week. Very good. So I’m, I’m really excited to see, uh, what aspects, you know, where the gaps are in the world. And then I’ll take it back, reflect on it, and then there’ll probably be more training courses that come with that.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well- Yeah … thank you so much for, you know, giving us an overview of- You’re welcome … the incredible stuff that you’re doing. You are so amazing and so inspi- Thank you … and so inspiring and, um, yeah, I just look forward to, you know, following your work and, and seeing where it, where it all goes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Yay.
Rusty Keeler: Spread it, spread it. Thanks so much for having
Louise Licznerski : me.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Louise Licznerski : Spread it. Go big or go home.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, that’s right. Go big or go home. Don’t be quiet. Don’t be quiet about it. Yeah. Awesome. Thank
Louise Licznerski : you so much. Thank
Rusty Keeler: you so much. All right.
Louise Licznerski : Okay. Take care, Russ.
Rusty Keeler: Bye. You too. Bye.
Rusty Keeler: All right. Thanks for listening Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at playnaturepodcast@gmail.com. You know I like talking about this stuff, and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide.
Rusty Keeler: Fun stuff in there. And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard, or loose parts, or saying yes to risky play, my favorite motto is, “Dream big, start small, and never stop.” Oh, yeah. Woo, woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there
