Lisa Murphy: Play is what is able to happen when children have time and choice. And play, I think, is a byproduct of that
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler, and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play, nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen
Lisa Murphy: Lisa Murphy
Rusty Keeler: Hello, Rusty. Hello. How are ya?
Lisa Murphy: I’m doing good. I, uh, I, I treated myself to a manicure this morning, so I was pleased that she got me in and out and I wasn’t late-
Rusty Keeler: Wow …
Lisa Murphy: for our podcast date.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Let’s see.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah. You wanna see ’em? I mean, you’re- Oh … this is not good podcasting, but it’s, uh-
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Let’s see.
Rusty Keeler: How do I do this?
Lisa Murphy: For those of you listening, I have, um, kind of a variation on mermaid nails today, a little green and purple action going on.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Wow.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Impressive. Yes, very nice, people.
Lisa Murphy: We know that’s what you woke up to listen to today- That’s
Rusty Keeler: right … what
Lisa Murphy: color are Lisa Murphy’s nails?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, another thing about today is, look, you’re not in an airport, you’re not en route.
Rusty Keeler: You look like you are planted.
Lisa Murphy: I am. I moved my office, uh, back into my home over- Okay … the summer, and it took a little longer to get adjusted ’cause I had a very lo- I had a big office, and, um, my biggest concern was, was getting all of my books back. I’m sure many of your listeners, um, also suffer from b- book collection syndrome, you know?
Lisa Murphy: Um- Yep,
Rusty Keeler: yep …
Lisa Murphy: and I got rid of… I found an, actually an app that, that will buy your books back. So I went through and did the- Okay … task that was probably needing to happen for the last 20 years, and I, I did some, I did some hardcore pruning of the books- Wow … which I’m not gonna lie to you, was kinda tricky It, it was tricky to decide, like what gets to stay and what gets to, to go and what- Totally
Lisa Murphy: has to go and, and what’s outdated, but maybe I wanna revisit it to see if even though it’s copyright dated, it still belongs on the shelf. And so actually what I did is I, w- for your listeners that are familiar with one of my main kind of bullet points, is that the foundation of play supports the house of academics, right?
Lisa Murphy: And in that foundation, there’s seven things: creating, moving, singing, discussing, observing, reading, and of course, playing. So I really kind of used that as a filter to decide which books stayed on the shelf. So if they linked back to the seven things, then they stayed on the shelf re- regardless. And, uh, so you’re up there, right up there.
Lisa Murphy: Hey. You’re right,
Rusty Keeler: you’re
Lisa Murphy: under the move, the move section- … and the outdoor section. And- All
Rusty Keeler: right, all right.
Lisa Murphy: So that was a little bit of a, of a process, but I probably got rid of 20 boxes of books. Holy
Rusty Keeler: moly.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah, like super nerd alert, anybody’s who’s listening, you know, it, it can be, they’re like babies, right?
Lisa Murphy: They’re like children. Yeah. I remember the first time I read through this and, you know, here are my notes from when I, you know, back in the day when I didn’t know any better, and it’s, I think it’s, I think it’s, mm, an amazing opportunity for self-reflection. And- Yeah, yeah … also like kind of gauging the trajectory of your career of, “Oh, oh, you know, I revisit this one book or whatever,” and- I wonder why I highlighted that.
Lisa Murphy: You know, like, I don’t think I would’ve highlighted that now, but then I, I’m pretty ritualistic in regard to, like, I will date on the book when I read it. So, like, if it’s yellow highlighter, I can go back and see, like, what year-
Rusty Keeler: Oh … that was. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: So yeah. Yeah. So it’s been a, uh, a, been, uh, uh, an exciting summer because I moved everything back into the, the house, which is nice ’cause then I’m here for the dogs all the time.
Rusty Keeler: Okay.
Lisa Murphy: Yep, yep. Um, and then I did a, I did a summer independent study for, uh, my second master’s, which I’m almost done with now.
Rusty Keeler: Wow. Wow. Oh, uh, what’s that? What do you s-
Lisa Murphy: I’m getting a, a… My first master’s is an MEd, uh, master’s in education in, um, early childhood education. Like, I loved that. That’s, I really… I didn’t want education, you know, at that general.
Lisa Murphy: I wanted early childhood.
Rusty Keeler: Yes.
Lisa Murphy: And so I got that from Champlain many years ago, and, uh, now I’m getting an MA in children’s literature-
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh …
Lisa Murphy: from Hollins University in, in Virginia, and, and I am loving it. But I, I’m not gonna lie to you, Rusty, the first summer that I was on campus was ’24, so I’m, I’m… And that first summer, I was on campus for the entire six weeks, ’cause that was how the program was structured then.
Lisa Murphy: Dude, for reals, I thought we were gonna just sit around and read each other picture books- Yeah … and talk about how amazing, you know, Where the Wild Things Are.
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Lisa Murphy: And I… It’s not that I got schnookumed, it’s that I was way in over my head. I’m like, “What do you mean we have to write papers
Rusty Keeler: about
Lisa Murphy: the- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: what do you mean we have to- Master’s degree, yo … think, think critically about Maurice Sendak’s use of full bleed on the illustration?” I’m like, “Oh my God.” Yeah. “I’ve never thought about any of this.” And I, I picked that school because I was doing a gig and, um, had flown into the airport in Roanoke, and there was actually a sign, a banner hanging from the ceiling that said, “Did you know you can study children’s literature full time?”
Lisa Murphy: And I was like- “I
Rusty Keeler: did not.” It’s like, “Maisie Murphy, did
Lisa Murphy: you
Rusty Keeler: know?” And I’m like…
Lisa Murphy: I, I know. It should’ve said, “Sucker,” like- Oh … on the banner. And, and I, when I had to do my interview before I applied with the dean and the, at the time, chair, I was like, “I don’t know how much y’all paid for that banner, but I, uh-
Lisa Murphy: you, you got me.” It worked. “You got me.” It, it worked. It worked. And, and I’ve really, really en- enjoyed it. And I think, like anything that’s new- Um, and using muscles, right? Let’s be honest. Using my m- parts of my brain that I hadn’t had to use in a while, and it took about two, three weeks to get my sea legs, and it was a condensed six-week summer session as opposed to the usual 13 weeks.
Lisa Murphy: And y- like a- Wow … silly goose, halfway through I was like, “So what are we not covering in the six weeks, you know, kind of condensed version that we would be covering?” And they said to me, both classes, they were like, “Oh dear. No, no, no. You’re getting the full- Yeah … 13 weeks in six weeks.” And I was like, “Okay, that at least helps me understand why I feel like I’m drowning.”
Lisa Murphy: Yes.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: And, you know, of course came out positive on the other side, have made some really amazing colleagues along, along the way, and this fall is now… Uh, I am taking two classes this fall, and then I’ll start my, my thesis work.
Rusty Keeler: Wow. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That is, uh, super exciting. I wanna ask you more about it, but first I want a bio from you.
Lisa Murphy: A bio?
Rusty Keeler: You, y- yes. You didn’t send one to me. You know, you, you busy person, you’re a busy person, but- Oh, I didn’t-
Lisa Murphy: So- I didn’t know you asked for one I’m
Rusty Keeler: sorry. Oh, that’s- ‘Cause- No, no …
Lisa Murphy: look, look at me just assuming that your, your listeners know who I am. So I- I’m Lisa Murphy. Yeah. Who…
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, who’s Lisa Murphy?
Lisa Murphy: I’m Lisa Murphy. I’ve been in the, the early childhood arena for over 35 years, and for the last 30 of those years I have been doing workshops full-time internationally, domestically, all over. Maine was the last state that I had not done an in-person gig in. Oh my gosh. And, uh, last October I was able to, um, I was honored to be the keynoter at Maine AEYC, and although I had done online work for groups in Maine, that was my first time actually there.
Lisa Murphy: So it was, I’m not gonna lie, it was pretty exciting. It was my birthday weekend, it was my first time in Maine, and then we checked the last of the 50 states- Yes. Holy moly … um, off the list. Yes. Um, what else? So I’m a huge play advocate. I fell in love professionally with Rusty 100 years ago when he was doing a session at, I believe it was NAEYC, N-A-E-Y-C.
Lisa Murphy: I forget which, what town, which, uh, what year it was. But I remember sitting on the floor with my back against the wall with my notebook wondering where you had been all of my life- Oh, I- … in regard… No, for real. Yeah. Like, I was like, “W- who is this guy? What is he all about?” And you were showing us some slides, and I remember the, the thing that I still think about from that particular lecture, that, that workshop that you did, was kids need a place to hide where they think that you can’t see them.
Lisa Murphy: And I went back, I was doing family childcare at the time, and I went back and I figured out how to have, like, little hidey-holes for the kids where I had full line of sight. Yeah. But they, they thought that, “Oh.” Yes. That it was like this magic little realm. And, um, yeah, I’ve been following your work ever since.
Lisa Murphy: So huge, huge fan of, of your work. Nice. Thank you. The open-ended- Love it … natural play, natural environments, loose parts. I mean, it all, it all dances, it all dances together. Um, so I, I live in Orlando, Florida. I’ve written five books, and the third edition of my playbook, which I’m very excited about. The third edition drops, uh, this, this fall.
Lisa Murphy: Wow. So I’m, I’m, I’m very, very-
Rusty Keeler: Congratulations.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah … excited. Well, thank you. I mean, it’s a- Yeah … it’s, it’s exciting because that means y- nobody asks you to write a third edition if it’s not still selling, right? Yep. So it’s still selling because I think the message of the importance of play, n- nothing’s changed, like, theoretically in the book, you know what I mean?
Lisa Murphy: Like, everything was still on point. It was like- Yeah … okay, w- what’s new that we need to add to- Yeah … to deepen, not the argument, I wouldn’t say that, but I write the way that I talk. So it’s very, I think, user-friendly, but content rich. So, you know, there’s a lot of story in there, there’s a lot of humor in there, but then it’s, it’s, it’s balanced out, I believe very nicely with not only, like, the classic research that supports the, the idea that play is the foundation that supports the house of academics, but, but also the, the new stuff.
Lisa Murphy: And then other, some other conversations that I haven’t had in the previous books that I really wanted to focus on in this one as well. Yeah. It’s funny, and this might impact a, a lot of what… Well, I c- I can’t say that, a lot of what you do. The idea that you can’t give back what you didn’t get. So if you were a- Okay
Lisa Murphy: if you were a child- Yeah … who w- w- didn’t get a lot of outdoor playtime, that didn’t get a lot of just go play- Yeah … and now you’re perhaps finding yourself in a childcare or a preschool or an elementary school environment where somebody’s telling you to let that happen, it can be tricky when you don’t have that- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: memory bank of your own to, to pull from and understand why, why it’s important.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. You know, I was gonna ask you, and I s- I’m, I wanna ask you, you know, what has changed over these, you know, say these 30 years? But I know from, from my work, that is one of them, where, where we, you would ask, “How did you play as a kid?”
Rusty Keeler: You know, whatever, whatever. And everybody was like, “Yeah, I, you know, out till the streetlights, you know, went on,” that kind of thing. But of course, generations, you know, have gone by and, and decades and things have changed. So there it is. It’s like n- not everybody’s had that. You didn’t
Lisa Murphy: get it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. So how do you, how do you inspire that for people who don’t, that doesn’t even make sense or have- Well, I think I, I think- … part memory
Lisa Murphy: I think w- that’s the reason why, and again, for the listeners who aren’t familiar with my, my work, when I go out and do workshops, I have about 15 general topics that people can choose from, and three of them are very hands-on.
Lisa Murphy: Like, I schlep three 70 pound tubs of gear. One is the ooey-gooey workshop, one is the art workshop, and then the fizzle bubble science workshop. And you know, dude, I’ve been schlepping these tubs around- … for 30 years. I, I, I’m pushing 60. And I was like, “W- when do the tubs get to retire? I don’t need to retire.”
Lisa Murphy: But you know what? After COVID especially, it really came to light that it, it was almost like we, it was almost like the people who originally had their butts in the seats 30 years ago at those early workshops, they’ve aged out, or they’ve retired, or they have chosen a new line of work because they’re, it’s harder to get up and down with two-year-olds.
Lisa Murphy: You know, let, let’s just be real. But they still have that, that passion for the work, but they’ve had to, you know, r- make some adjustments, whatever. Well, they had those memories. And so now as the s- as the butts in the seats are being replaced by some people who don’t have those memories, that is one of the reasons why I continue to schlep the stuff around.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah. Because, because they, they didn’t get it. And I’m not, I’m… For the listeners, I, I want you to realize that I’m making a, a very huge, like, gross generalization. Many people got it. Sure.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Many people didn’t get it. Um, uh, lately what I really, really, really seem to enjoy, Rusty, is when there’s high school students in the audience, or like the high school child development teacher heard I was gonna be at a conference so she wrangled up all the kids and gives them extra credit, and then they come up on the stage, and no joke, they play harder than anybody- Ah
Lisa Murphy: I’ve ever, ever seen- Okay … engage. And their teachers will whisper in my ear things like, “They’re so sensory…” Mm, deprived is a strong word, but like, they, they have a big bucket that needs to be filled because it wasn’t- Yeah … filled. And- Ah … and they were the kids that were, like, the, the super Flubber Gak kids back, you know, a few, in the, like, the s- the slime craze of- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: whenever that was. Yeah. Uh, s- ’16 and
Lisa Murphy: ’17. And, and they’re sharing memories like, “I haven’t done this since then.” And I was like, “You guys were like vigilante scientists. You were mixing anything together- … to try and get a new slime recipe. Like, you were doing STEM- Yeah … before we were calling it that. And, um, so what, what happened? And it’s like, you know, we were in school and we were expected to sit still and pay attention and regurgitate stuff for, you know, some kind of a test or a standardized test.
Lisa Murphy: And, and so when people say like, “When does the playing stop?” You know, I’m n- I’m not being dramatic or sarcastic when I say hopefully never.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Because it, it, you, you don’t ever grow out of- I think, uh, uh, an innate biological need to have play and a, a p- a playful spirit as a part, as a part of your existence.
Rusty Keeler: So what is that? Tell, tell me more. What is play to you? You know, you, you, you studied it, you’ve thought about it, you do it, you inspire others, but what, what… When you really go down to the core, like w- what is that? I
Lisa Murphy: think I, I really do, and, and you’re gonna… Well, I don’t, I don’t know how you’ll respond to it, but the more I revisit Peter Gray’s five conditions of play, the more I realize that he really hit the nail on the head, even with just the first two.
Lisa Murphy: So the fir- And, and I think, and I’m, and I’m not, and I’m not name-dropping him because I don’t wanna answer from my own self. It’s that his five conditions of play are so clear that it’s allowed a, an effective springboard for me to personally really think about play. And the first condition is that it’s freely chosen and you can quit when you’re done.
Lisa Murphy: And just right there- Ah … you could, you could spend months just there, freely chosen. And as a grown-up, as, as, you know, a childcare provider, as a preschool teacher, how often am I really honestly providing enough time for children to be making choices that then leads to play. And many years ago, I was- and sometimes I wonder if they’re all still around.
Lisa Murphy: There was a group early when I got started, it was like hashtag KinderChat was their name, and there was a woman there who said to me one time on a, it wasn’t a podcast, but we would get together and chat, and it was recorded and shared with people. And she said, “Lisa, do you really think that we’re defenders of play or are we defenders of choice?”
Lisa Murphy: And you know, I will n- Mardell was her name. I’ll, I’ll never forget that because it, it just boom, it hit me because I’d never thought about that before. Play is what is able to happen when children have time and- Yeah … and, and, and choice.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: And play I think is a byproduct of that. And, and that to me, to circle back to your actual question, I think it’s being engaged in a task that we want to be engaged in for no other reason other than I’m enjoying doing it.
Lisa Murphy: Which doesn’t mean it’s always fun, doesn’t mean it’s always happy, doesn’t mean it’s frivolous. But you know, for me, writing new workshops is a form of play because- Mm … it’s, it’s self-fulfilling, right? I, it’s, it’s, um, what is that? The, mm, what is it? Uh, not external locus- Intrins- … internal. It’s intrin- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: yeah, it’s intrinsically motivated. Yeah. And, and it’s not a chore for me to spend time on it. And when you hang out with kids you can see that as well. You can see a kid schlepping, like dragging this huge two-by-four or this big piece of wood or a big thing, you know, and, and an adult might want to swoop in and, and assist not realizing that, you know, their good intentions perhaps are undermining a very, a very focused play experience-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah
Lisa Murphy: for, for that child. So, um, and, and, and the, the second criteria is that, you know, process, the process instead of the product, right? Are we engaged in it because we are enjoying? Like it, it might be more in, it might be more exciting and playful for a child to line up the markers or to line up the trains or to line up the cars before, before any kind of play episode transpires.
Lisa Murphy: And sometimes I think adults don’t see that the play has already, it’s already begun. But often grown-ups get in our, we get in our head and we are like, “Come on, come on,” like, “Do something with those cars. Build something with those blocks.” And, um, I, in my, in my books I call it the, the pre-play planning. The pre-play planning, the negotiation, the you’re the baby kitty and I’m the daddy and you’re gonna come and s- Like, that is just as important, that negotiation, that communication, potentially problem-solving.
Lisa Murphy: Th- that, that, like, is so important, which is why the timepiece is so important. Because if you don’t have time for all that pre-play planning negotiation to then lead into the play episode, and then in my, m- you know, in my ideal world, then the children involved in the play episode are the ones that bring it to closure, not the flicking of the lights or the ringing of a bell or the clean up, clean up everybody everywhere.
Lisa Murphy: You know? I know. They’re like, “Oh, my gosh. We’re, we’re still deciding who gets to wear the gold shoes,” you know? Yeah, yeah. And then somebody’s ringing the, ringing the bell. We’re not done. We’re
Rusty Keeler: not done yet.
Lisa Murphy: We’re not done. We haven’t even started.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Well, it is amazing when you, when play is allowed to play out, yeah, what happens or how it evolves or how it turns into other things, and when there really is that sustained amount of time, it’s a, it’s a big difference.
Lisa Murphy: Huge difference.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Many years ago, I was on a, a TV show up in Upstate New York, and it was like an education- Oh,
Rusty Keeler: Upstate New York.
Lisa Murphy: Ah … Yeah, I wonder, yeah. I like
Rusty Keeler: that place.
Lisa Murphy: Uh, yeah. And, uh, anyway, they, they asked me for it, uh, on, and during the interview, and it was live, and, and you know this about me, I don’t wanna know the questions.
Lisa Murphy: Like, if we’re gonna play that game, just hit me, right? Unless you’re gonna play, like, trick the presenter and wanna know, like, what year Piaget was born. Um, but they asked me, they said, “If you were going to open a childcare center on Monday, what is the one thing that you would insist has to be present before you open the doors to children?”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: And honestly, Rusty, I think they thought I was gonna say something like books or blocks or bikes, but you know what I said? I said time.
Rusty Keeler: Ah.
Lisa Murphy: Because, because you can spend thousands of dollars on all of those materials, but if you don’t ever have the time to use them, or if we’re always in a hurry to clean up and put them away, why, why, why did we even bother purchasing them?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: And, and I, I spend a lot of time unpacking the timepiece in one of my books, um, because I, I think we don’t, we deprive children of, of the time, and we give them 20-minute chopped-up schedules, and we have 14 transitions before lunch, but then we think we have behavior problems, and I’m like, “No, no,
Rusty Keeler: no.”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: We have some environmental tweaks that maybe we need to be considering.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, you know, our society, culture, technology, everything’s just going faster, faster, faster, and play, when you really are around it, it, it has its own speed. And, and, and I, I’m, you know, as a nature person too, I’m, I’m, I’m al- always thinking about Earth speed.
Rusty Keeler: How do we get on Earth speed? And play, that is also the speed of play, you know, the speed of flowers, the speed of toads hop- you know, f- frogs jumping, the whole thing. And, and so is play, how it evolves and changes, and it needs, it needs space. It needs- It needs space …
Lisa Murphy: yeah. It needs time. It needs space. And I like what you said about the Earth s- Earth time.
Lisa Murphy: What’d you call it? Earth speed? Is- Earth, Earth
Rusty Keeler: speed …
Lisa Murphy: because there are, is times when that can be really fast and really frantic. Mm-hmm. And then there’s other times where it’s, you know, lay on your back and, you know, watch the, the clouds float, float by. And I think one of the, one of the challenges for people who maybe are, are coming into their own, of their own deeper understanding of the importance of what we call play, is realizing that there isn’t a nice little box to put it in.
Lisa Murphy: You know? And, and, and that’s what the play scholars have been saying for 100 years. It’s, it’s slippery, ’cause the, the minute you think you’ve got it defined, like something’s gonna change or something’s gonna, you know, there, there isn’t a, a one-size-fits-all formula or answer to so many of the questions that people who work with young children, I think, often have.
Lisa Murphy: Because the one kid, that one kid that might be the, the bane of somebody’s existence can be like boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo, boo on Monday all over the map like a pinball- Yeah … and then the very next day can find themselves in, in a slower zone. And, and so as an adult, how are we bringing that flexibility to the table so that we don’t pigeonhole children, and we’re making room for the fact that somebody who might have been very big and boisterous on Tuesday, uh, can v- be occasionally kind of quiet and off to the side or very introspective even the very, the very next day.
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh. That it’s, that it’s always different. It, it can be always different. Yeah. Well-
Lisa Murphy: Well, it would be boring if it was all the same.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. But maybe things are programmed, you know, as if they are this, you know. I mean, I think about that, the human speed, the earth speed versus like machine speed or machine schedules and all that kind of stuff, of like how do we get back on that and know that it’s, it’s improvisation and, and how to let teachers have that freedom of, of, of being able to be in, in improv, you know, in improv theater or to follow it or to even when they feel the, you know, the pressure they have to do things or they, they have their schedule, you know, to get through.
Rusty Keeler: But really it’s like the wonder. How do you keep that wonder?
Lisa Murphy: Well, true, and that’s, I think keeping the wonder and that flexibility and the whole “yes and,” um, you know, what part of this can I say yes to, is easier to tap into when you have a memory of it your own self, which is, again, back to that original question.
Lisa Murphy: Y- you know, sometimes people really don’t get that playfulness spirit lit until they’re at a workshop, and maybe you’re facilitating something and maybe they’ve never felt the mud on their feet, you know? I, I’ve met 20-year-olds who’ve never touched Oobleck, the corn starch and the water. You know, so it’s, it’s, I don’t think it’s a big leap to think, okay, if you haven’t, if you haven’t experienced this kind of a sensory, um, you know, opportunity, I don’t think it’s a big leap to think that maybe there’s a chance y- you’ve never been barefoot in the mud either.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah,
Lisa Murphy: yeah. And, and, and, and y- you know, and then you keep thinking, okay, well then what part of that is getting in the way of that grownup then facilitating those kinds of experiences for, for the, the, the children? Yeah. Right? Again, it’s hard to give back what, what you didn’t get unless you’ve done the work.
Lisa Murphy: And some of your listeners maybe have heard that phrase, you know, you’re gonna parent the way you were parented and teach the, you’re gonna teach the way you were taught unless you do the work. And some of us have had more work to do. You know? If you- Mm … w-were in a d- if you had an absolutely horrific educational experience and had a lot of controlling educators as teacher models, that’s your default setting.
Lisa Murphy: You might disagree with it, you might not believe it- Yeah … but because it’s what you got, you’re gonna give that back unless you consciously say, “You know what? That could’ve been different. What do I need to start doing in my own work to make sure that I’m not giving back what I got because I’ve learned that it wasn’t as best as it could be?”
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. A- and things can be simpler even . Uh, you know, I f- I find that I do, you know, go out and do workshops, professional development on a smaller scale than you, Lisa, but you know, I’m out there. Um, and so I’ll do, you know, talks and pictures and group discussions and stuff, but I’ve also been doing a lot of, sounds funny, but fairy hut building workshops.
Lisa Murphy: Oh, I
Rusty Keeler: love it. Uh, yeah. And, and so it could be out in nature but with loose parts, loose natural materials. And you know, we can be having all these discussions beforehand, and then you get the teachers out there and they are build- and then suddenly they are gone. They are in their mi- and they’re playful and they’re creating.
Rusty Keeler: And then every single one we do a tour, and every single fairy hut is different and they all have stories. It’s a spa, it’s a hotel, it’s a, you know, the whole deal. And then there, the, the light bulb that’s gone on is like, “Oh, it’s pretty simple actually. All it was was sticks and acorns and leaves, and wait, we could bring this to our classroom.
Rusty Keeler: We could let our kids-” Mm-hmm … “do this.” And they’re turned on and, and ready. But yeah, but you were- That’s the best
Lisa Murphy: part … you were filling that bucket, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: You gave them that personal, tangible, visceral experience of it, um, which n- which needs to happen if you don’t have that already in your memory.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. And, and I bet that there’s, um… Oh, I’d love to have been a fly on the wall. Maybe I’ll have to find the next time you’re doing that.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: I bet there is, uh, perhaps a surprise might be a word, of, of how much time was required to get into that play zone, right? It takes a minute.
Lisa Murphy: ‘Cause adults tend to be, you know, “Am I doing it right?” And who’s- Yeah … winning play f- who’s winning fairy houses? Yeah, yeah. Right? Right? Who, who’s doing it better? And then after you gotta turn all that stuff off in our brain, um, and so it can take adults, in my experience, a little bit longer to kind of shed some of that inhibition and be willing to bring that playfulness to it,
Rusty Keeler: and not- Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you see different things happen where, you know, some will be groups, “All right, we wanna be a team,” or just me, a two-person team, or then there’s a whole group, and then there’s people, “I’m just doing my own thing.” Do- and, you know, and even as time goes by, you know, “Okay, it’s time.
Rusty Keeler: Well, let’s take the tour.” But there’s people who are still engaged, like, “Okay, oh gosh, I’m cutting off the time. We need more, we need more time even in the fairy hut-building workshop.” Uh, but you see, I mean, so there it is. It’s just like… And, and so then that’s interesting to think about, okay, the spirit of play.
Rusty Keeler: Like, beneath the age, beneath the, you know, the w- the place where you are in life of like, yeah, you still have that, that sense of wonder, the sense of, you know, that creativity. And to see teachers be able to do that when they’re, you know, they have to, you know, be thinking and planning and having the, the overhead view all the time to like, well, you get to tap that, your little flame.
Lisa Murphy: To me, I think I sum that up for my own self with the word curious. Mm. Is how, how, how have I, Lisa Murphy, you know, I’ll be 57 next month. Yeah. How have I maintained that, that curiosity? And is it something that I’ve had to think, like, it, do, am I doing it intentionally? Is it just something I bring to the table?
Lisa Murphy: You know, did I… And I, I think it, it is that. Like, I, I’m very curious always about stuff. I like to know. I like to, I like to, like, explore things and, and see how that makes me, you know, feel. And there, and I’m not always looking for, like, how can I then apply this to my work? Like, it’s not like that. It’s like in its own, like, being curious is its own thing.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s not, it’s not like being curious because it’s gonna help me be better in my job. It’s like, this is just something that I, that I do and, and I don’t know, do you think you can… I think you can cultivate curiosity, but I don’t know if you can make somebody curious.
Rusty Keeler: Well, you know what? I feel like that’s one of those things that a great teacher can model if they’re curious.
Rusty Keeler: I mean, we want children to be curious, to tap that, because children, I think, are, right, naturally. They are. But school can maybe not s- sprout that, but we want lifetime learners with people who are l- always learning and curious about the world. Because, you know, it’s, it’s infinite of, like, what we, what, what’s happening here and what we can think about and learn.
Rusty Keeler: So I think that is, that might be one of the biggest things of education. How do you just spark curiosity? ‘Cause if, once it’s sparked, it could, th- there’s no end to it.
Lisa Murphy: Well, I, I, I really do believe a lot of people in our profession became teachers because of that one teacher that had that spark. And, and some of us- You’re
Rusty Keeler: like, “Wow, look at them.
Rusty Keeler: They’re excited. They wanna learn.” Yeah, they’re ex- curious about the clouds and the water and the frog.
Lisa Murphy: And in an authentic way, Rusty. I think that’s- Yeah … important, too, because kids can smell BS a mile away. Yeah. And they can tell if it’s, like, fake, you know? There’s, I call it, I, I call it organic enthusiasm.
Lisa Murphy: And-
Rusty Keeler: Okay.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah … because it has to be organic. Yes, yes, yes. Um, or it’s- Yeah … very, very see-through. That saccharine-y, like, I work with kids, so I have to always be excited about things all the time. Like, that’s, no, that’s not, that’s not how it works. But I, I bet if you did a, a little informal poll the next time you’re with a group of educators, you know, how many of them are giving back what they got from that third grade teacher or that first grade teacher that they can still see his or her face, but they remember loving being in that classroom.
Lisa Murphy: I mean, that, that is enough. If you have an experience like that, that can sustain you for your entire- Mm … life- Mm-hmm … if you allow yourself to stay in touch with it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, to be a student around a teacher, around an adult who is, like, jazzed, right? Oh, I just got goosebumps. Goosebumps. Yeah. I mean, yeah, right.
Rusty Keeler: I mean, but t- if you take it back to your own teachers that were like that. Like, you want to be on the journey with them because they are just so excited. And, and yeah, that, that rubs off. That, that is like, that could be, like, one of the greatest examples of, of, of b- of being an adult, being a human, that you’re showing children.
Rusty Keeler: Like, if, look, this is, this is exciting. And yeah. Yeah, I mean-
Lisa Murphy: And, and, and along with that, I think what that dances with is the notion that you can bring that extreme sense of curiosity and wonder to, uh, life, to your own kids, to a classroom, and it doesn’t undermine the learning, quote-unquote, that sometimes the outsiders looking in are expecting from the place.
Lisa Murphy: You know? And that, that’s been a big part of my work, is getting people to understand that just because somebody walks in the room and says something like, “What are you doing?” it will, will often, uh, because my profession, our profession, they’re the- we’re very nice people. Yeah And, you know, if somebody walks in with a suit on and a name tag or a clipboard or something and says, you know, “What are you doing?”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah,
Lisa Murphy: yeah. You know, the profession’s default setting is, like, backtrack, “Oh my God, I’m sorry.” You know, like, “What, what am I…” There’s this instant belief unfortunately of like I’m doing something wrong, or that the person might have asked, “What are you doing?” But we heard, not all the time, but sometimes we hear, “You’re not allowed to do that.”
Lisa Murphy: And so then I think we accidentally start putting the kibosh on that w- that wonder and that play because somebody who doesn’t know any better didn’t see those connections- Yeah … on, on, on their own. Um-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Our inner critic taps in, kicks in. Right, or they’re- Even if that person, they might not have even been judging us that way, but suddenly that, that can come up, you know?
Lisa Murphy: It does. Yeah. It does, and we’re like, “Oh God, what am I doing wrong?” And, “Oh, I’m not supposed to be doing that.” And, and, and, and the concern I have there is that then we might occasionally find ourselves undermining the experiences of the kids right in front of us to keep somebody happy who’s never in the building.
Lisa Murphy: Hmm. And, you know, if you get that day after day and year after year, it’s gonna be… I mean, that’s why the c- the, the innate wonder that kids have and curiosity that, that… That’s why I think school squishes it. Not because school has this mission and goal, the school, of, of, of squashing curiosity. It’s just that I think it’s the slow buildup, that old lobster in the pot.
Lisa Murphy: You know, the, the water keeps getting turned up a little bit at a time and, and nobody realizes it, um, you know, that they’re boiling themselves to death. But then you get a new person, a new lobster comes in and is like, “Wow!” Like, “What’s going on here? This water’s too hot. What are you doing? Get out of here.”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah,
Lisa Murphy: yeah. And, and, you know, that, that group dynamic that can sometimes get in the way too. Um, you know, many of us have that experience of being at a program for multiple years, and then you get that infusion of new blood that everybody says they want, but then when it shows up, we get a little, you know, persnickety towards it.
Rusty Keeler: No, no, we don’t go up the slide. No, no, no. That’s… W- why? I don’t, I don’t know why.
Lisa Murphy: I don’t know why.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, golly. Well, let me, uh, let me step back again, Alisa, because, you know, I w- I kinda wanna just ask you, you know, you, this perspective that you have, I, I feel like you have- You know, all these years that you’ve been doing this and all the places, you know, that you’ve traveled and the, and the people you’ve talked to that, you know.
Rusty Keeler: I mean, really, like, you think about this or just a, like, this retrospective of your, of your life, but then also, like, this perspective that is like, you know, I have a little bit of that. I feel like, you know, I’ve traveled around and I’m, I see all these different places, and you see similarities, you see differences.
Rusty Keeler: But you, you have this perspective that nobody else has of, like, through time and space of- Mm-hmm … of educators, of programs, of, of centers, of, you know. And y- yeah, what, what is your, you know, how do you step back and, and what do you, what do you make of all that? All the, all the differences or similarities or the same people doing the same things or, or it’s changing or, you know, yeah, who, who i- or who are these educators or what is, yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Well, I, I think ultimately the important piece is meeting, meeting them where they are, but then working in tandem to either elevate or inform, right? ‘Cause there’s always, there’s always another step to take. And I joke in the workshops that the minute you wake up, think you’ve got early childhood down is the day that, you know, you need– You’re gonna get triplet Jonathans, the kid that never gets sick.
Lisa Murphy: You’re, like, three of them are gonna show up and smack you off the high horse because you n- you never are done. There’s always something to, to learn. And again, that goes back to that, that curiosity. But I had thought about that, um, and I, I, I am not wanting to sound like I’m just plugging the new book, but I thought about this a lot because it has been, you know, 30 years of- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: of people in the audience, and I didn’t want to, I didn’t wanna run the whole book through like a, you know, Gen X, Gen Z, Millennial, like, you know, that, ’cause I, ’cause I, I’m not a fan of like categorizing. Yeah. But there were some overarching generalities that I did put. I included a section in the book of like who the, what the audience kind of looked like when I very, very first started.
Lisa Murphy: I mean, I still had some greatest generations, people in the audience. You go back to 1997 when I actually started doing workshops, you know, you know, the older people in the room were of that generation, and they were mostly boomers. Um- Yeah … boomer generation. And the questions, that’s what I focused on in the book, was like the pushback against play from the very f- first day out.
Lisa Murphy: The pushback initially were from the people who still had that mindset that play is what happened when you get home from school, right? School is one thing. Learning is one thing. It was very separate. Mm-hmm. Very
Rusty Keeler: separate.
Lisa Murphy: And then, then the, then as they, you know, aged out, retired, moved on, then the questions became more, more pushing back because of the expectations that were being put on them at school.
Lisa Murphy: So there wasn’t this question of play. It was more of a question of, you know, like I feel like it’s important, but I don’t think I’m allowed to do it, right? And so then, and so I, what I d- what I, what I b- bring readers through in the book is like how, how the idea perhaps of play, like my interpretation of how, how the questions through the course of the years have changed to where now- It’s almost like there isn’t a familiarity with the concept of play.
Lisa Murphy: So there’s often this sense of like, “I kinda believe what this crazy lady up on stage is talking about, but I don’t know what it looks like, sounds like, smells like, feels like. Nobody else is doing it. I don’t have a memory of it. My mom didn’t…” Do you know what I’m saying? So it’s like we’re not… Nobody’s pushing back because I don’t think they don’t believe it.
Lisa Murphy: It’s more like, “Give me some tools to use,” or, “Give me a framework,” or, you know, “Let, let me know some of the, the, the nuts and bolts, um, so, so I can go back and start playing w- with it.” Oh. So that, that was kind of a fun little tour to take in the book of, you know, just, just how the generational, um, cohorts have changed through, through the years and, and how the message of play has been received.
Rusty Keeler: So you’re saying that the, the more modern age d- doesn’t even have play as… Is it not on the radar as much?
Lisa Murphy: The old- Well, again, we’re making… For the listeners- Sure.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Lisa Murphy: we’re making gross, sweeping generalizations here.
Rusty Keeler: Yes.
Lisa Murphy: Um, but, but yeah, it’s more of like I, I- W- you can only give back what you’ve gotten, right?
Lisa Murphy: So if you don’t have memories of, and I’m not, mm, and th- and this is where it can be a slippery slope. Because it’s not like pining for some nostalgia or sentimentality. It’s not that at all. It’s, it’s like when I would have the younger kids come into the, the classroom, and I’d say, “Oh, it’s playtime,” and they would stand there, and they’d just like look.
Lisa Murphy: Like, I’m not quite sure what you mean by it’s playtime. Yeah. And so I learned that, okay, it’s not that kids don’t know how to play, right? It’s, it’s not that they, they aren’t playing. It’s that maybe that word isn’t, they haven’t had opportunity enough to link that word with maybe the experience that they’re having, or with the act- You can do what you wanna do
Lisa Murphy: of
Rusty Keeler: making- Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Right? And so- Yeah … I, I had to reframe my language, you know. And, you know, meanwhile co-teachers are like, “Oh, these kids nowadays, they just don’t know how to play.” Well, they do, but they’ve been deprived of time, um, maybe of open-ended materials. You know, it’s been a little bit more scripted, a little bit maybe more adult-directed.
Lisa Murphy: So it’s like they have this detox time where they themselves have to get their sea legs. And so when Miss Lisa says, you know, “It’s playtime,” that means I get to go choose w- where I wanna be. So that became the language, was, was, you know, you can take the blocks off the shelf, and you can use them. So I, I…
Lisa Murphy: It was like this intentional choice to find other words instead of just go play, because it was, I feel, uh, almost too open-ended. And because there, it was so open-ended, then no choices were being made, you know? And, and then sometimes then I see that- Sure … at workshops as well, you know, go play, right? You now have 90 minutes to go play, and you can feel them, some of them- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: thinking like, “Oh, God, like, where do we begin? Is this like do, is there a right way? Is there a wrong way?” And it’s not their fault, because they’ve been socially conditioned, you know, in this huge social experiment that we call public education. And, and they’re not often taught how to think for themselves.
Lisa Murphy: They’re not often taught, um, and, and that’s then my concern is with the, with chopped up 20 minutes schedules, and you’re told from the time you’re in the infant room when you’re six weeks old when to eat, when to sleep, when to poop, when to pee, when to line up, when to clean up, when you’re hungry, when you’re not.
Lisa Murphy: You know, and then you might find yourself at a play-focused pre-K or a kindergarten, and the teacher says, “Go play,” and then they go, “Ugh.” You’re like, “What, what do you want me to do?” And I see the same adults do the same thing. What do you want me to do? You know, what, what is the- Yeah … what is the thing? I’m, I’m, am, am I getting graded?
Lisa Murphy: Is there an assessment built into this? And it’s almost like until that trust really kicks in that this lady, whether she’s my preschool teacher or whether she’s the lady up on stage doing the workshop, that she really means it when she says I can choose anywhere in this space that I want to go figure out or play with or explore more or, you know, be curious about and that she’s, she’s, there isn’t another shoe.
Lisa Murphy: They’re waiting for the other shoe to drop, right? They’re waiting that I’m gonna trick them or something like that. And until that trust really gels- Huh … and, and that’s why our consistency in the behaviors or, on our own consistency in our own behaviors as adults who work with young children and adults who work with adult learners, there’s consistencies there so then they can go about the business of exploring the space ’cause they’re not worried about M- Miss Lisa’s mood changing Right?
Lisa Murphy: Does it, does that, you know, so if nothing else, I’m consistent. You know, my mood doesn’t dictate whether or not the easel is available. My mood is not gonna dictate whether or not we get to go outside. In, in, in my childcare center, you are allowed to go up the slide, so my mood didn’t change that. Uh-huh.
Lisa Murphy: Whereas I think until grownups settle into the fact that they can trust that my mood isn’t going to change that, there’s this kind of like, mm, this uncertainty, but then once it kicks in, oh, it’s just lovely. Uh-huh. It’s just lovely. Uh-huh.
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right. Then the natural way of being can emerge.
Lisa Murphy: Right? Yeah. I can go about the business of being three ’cause I’m not worried about whether or not Lisa Murphy- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: Miss Lisa’s gonna change her mind on whether or not I can be barefoot today.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Golly. Yeah. I, I mean, that’s the thing. I feel like this, this back and forth between the natural way of being for children and play and that, and, and then the, all the adult parameters or the, you know, when do you-
Ego
Rusty Keeler: yeah. Do you allow it? Ego. Yeah, that’s a whole other thing too. Control. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Control.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Or-
Lisa Murphy: Too much control …
Rusty Keeler: schedule. I mean, across the board, whether you’re, whether you’re three, five, seven, school age, teenage, it’s like when do you get to have that, you know? And even overscheduled or if you’re indoors, if, if it’s not safe outside for real or if people think it’s not safe outside and, and just like where the, where
Rusty Keeler: But in reality, there is a natural way of, of, of the spirit of, of being curious and wonder and, and creative and wanting to be social and, and all that. And so it’s like there’s this experiment, just like we’ve been experimenting with screens and, you know, screens and little kids, screens and teens and all this stuff and being like, “Wait, wait, wait.
Rusty Keeler: That’s, that’s not good for the brain and the, you know, mental health and spirit and everything.” But just like the same thing with like kinda squashing or the adult- It’s like the adults being like, “We’ve studied, uh, child development,” or, “We study education,” or, “We’ve come up with the ways,” and so, uh, which is the almost sometimes the opposite of just the natural way of, of being.
Rusty Keeler: And
Lisa Murphy: that, that just- Yeah, what are we so afraid of? What are we
Rusty Keeler: so afraid of? Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, it’s like less control or like s- you know, just adding to it, adding to like what could be the fire of, of curiosity and learning and growing and, and developing which is in there. It’s like whatever, through millennia like people have, you know, grown and developed and become adults and, and everything.
Lisa Murphy: And I think, Rusty, that’s why when people find a program, a school, whether it’s a charter school, whether it’s a private school, whether it’s a childcare center or even a family childcare home that sends off that vibe- Yeah … that’s why people will drive hours-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Lisa Murphy: for, for even a four-hour program because that’s ultimately what they want for, for their children.
Lisa Murphy: And I think, you know, it… You might, you might be a destination location to some degree, but then man, once word spreads that that’s… You know, there’s so- My, my point is, is that there’s people out there looking for that. Yes. Yes. There, there, there are people who are like, “I don’t want my kid subjected to what I was subjected to.
Lisa Murphy: I don’t want my four-year-old sitting in a desk doing homework.” Yeah. And you know, so there’s this, this horrible who are we trying to appease, you know, in the early childhood world. Mm-hmm. You know, we make these choices. Um, you know, and that’s a, that’s a whole other can of worms there, you know, talking about the push down and the push down and the push down and- Geez, yeah
Lisa Murphy: you know, and some of the expectations that we put on the youngest people only because m- for many adults, they, they can’t get back in their own memory much earlier than fourth grade. So then they walk into a childcare/preschool and they apply, proj- Uh-huh … they project their own memory, and it meant that there was somebody in the front of the room, and there was a blackboard, and there were desks, and there was assignments, and there was punishment if you did something naughty.
Lisa Murphy: And then they, like- assume that that’s what it should look like even for the youngers, and, and that unfortunately is not what good early childhood looks like. It’s not what good school looks like anyway, but- Yeah … specifically for, for the littles, which is why one of my many calls to action for the people in our profession is to be a little bit more vocal in a, in a polite, professional- Yes
Lisa Murphy: fashion. But to, to really resist the urge to just, you know, roll over and turn into a doormat just because somebody wearing a suit walks in, and to know our stuff. And, and I really think that confidence only comes about when we are in touch with the research. And I’m not, I’m not giving your listeners, like, a homework assignment, and it doesn’t mean you need a master’s degree.
Lisa Murphy: No, let’s give them homework ass- It means you need, it, it means you need to be curious enough to know more, to know enough about this profession so we can be guardians of inquiry- Yeah. Absolutely … and guardians of that- Yes … foundation that’s supporting the house. You know, nobody is saying we don’t want the house of academics.
Lisa Murphy: That’s probably- That’s,
Rusty Keeler: yeah …
Lisa Murphy: that’s probably the biggest pushback I’ve gotten over the consistent 30 years is, “Oh, Lisa Murphy’s, it’s, it’s all play.” It’s like, well, okay, that foundation of play is filled with bricks. Those are the seven things. Yeah. And then it’s supporting the house of the reading and the writing and the math and the science.
Lisa Murphy: Nobody is saying we don’t want kids doing math- Uh-huh … or spelling or knowing those things. But we’re acknowledging that there’s a wide body of research that says you can only have a huge academic mansion if you have a rock-solid foundation. Yeah. And that, that became my stuck in the elevator definition of readiness.
Lisa Murphy: You know, what is read- Ah … what is readiness? How is my kid going to be ready? Well, let’s break it down. These are the seven things. How much opportunity do they get on a regular basis to be putting those bricks in that foundation? Yeah. Because the, we’re not getting anybody ready for anything if we send them off metaphorically to elementary school with gaping holes in, in that foundation, and that’s what makes K trickier and grade one and two trickier, because those teachers, God love them, they’re backfilling.
Lisa Murphy: They have double duty. They’re backfilling that foundation while also- You know, building and scaffolding that, that academic mansion
Rusty Keeler: Gosh. Gosh. And then that idea of thinking, oh, the, the pushing the a- academics down, thinking, “Oh, well, we don’t need all those bricks. We don’t need play. We’re, we’re gonna start with academics.
Rusty Keeler: We’re gonna, you know, get them…” Or so it’s like building, but you’re like, you’re putting wood on dirt. You’re putting- Yeah … your house on mud, on, you know, it’s gonna-
Lisa Murphy: It’s gonna fall
Rusty Keeler: down. Yeah, because it doesn’t have that stuff. And it, it’s a funny thing for, I don’t know, in the education world to think, wait, these, this actually is like the, the foundation.
Rusty Keeler: This like, this is the, this is the important stuff. And, and it’s the soft stuff. It’s, it’s not like, oh, we’re t- get the math in there, get the, you know, reading in there, get the, you know, all that stuff. It’s like, wait, this is like children finding out who they are, having the spark of curiosity, moving their bodies, being able to grip things, being able to…
Rusty Keeler: And then the social of like being with other children or, or what’s that like and, and, and all that stuff. And, and right, you say readiness. That’s the, right? That’s the readiness. That’s
Lisa Murphy: readiness.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so how, how do you coach people to then be strong, what would they believe in, and, and what do to say?
Rusty Keeler: What do, what do they say to that stuff? I think that’s… ‘Cause I find in my work people get lo- like nature play or they risky play, even that. Like they’re, we’re getting it and we’re, we’re, you know, I’m, I’m trying to find it myself and I, I’m supporting it, but it’s always how do I talk, but how do I talk about it?
Rusty Keeler: How do I… Like you said, early childhood people especially, they’re nice, they’re nice people. We’re nice. And, and they’re in it y- they’re in it not to have hard conversations. They’re in it because they love kids and wanna support all that. But it feels like now, to me, in this, in our time in history, it’s like, it’s actually early childhood people getting strong and yeah, using that voice.
Rusty Keeler: I think they- But they, but they need talking points. They need help. Like, what do I say? I believe it. I believe that play is good. I believe that this is the foundation. But how do I say that to the, the parents, the licensors, the director, the, the
Lisa Murphy: staff? Well, I think the, the first order of business is n- not assuming that there is a problem, um, that like, um, that didn’t come out clear enough.
Lisa Murphy: I think often we err on the side of thinking that people are gonna have a problem with a play forward, play focused space. Oh,
Rusty Keeler: uh-huh.
Lisa Murphy: And so we start defending it before-
Rusty Keeler: Ah …
Lisa Murphy: we need to, and then that sends a really weird subtle non, uh, uh, a very subtle incorrect message that because I’m having to explain it and defend it, that are they doing something they shouldn’t be doing?
Rusty Keeler: Oh, right. Right. So like we’re so s- subtly saying it’s not right by d- Ac- accidentally …
Lisa Murphy: defending
Rusty Keeler: it so much. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Right? And, and the, the only reason that, that I can speak to this is when I had my childcare center, um, 100 years ago, um, it, it came to my attention, ’cause I owned it and I worked in it, but I had an administrative staff ’cause I know what I’m good at, and I know what I need to delegate, so I was not the director.
Lisa Murphy: Right. But it came to my attention that the tours were taking an absolutely huge amount of time, and nobody was enrolling. And I was like, “Okay, now how am I gonna be a fly on the wall to figure this out?” Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously, you know, the teacher and directors are gonna know it, that, “Lisa’s on a tour,” you know?
Lisa Murphy: But I listened and it, it took… I, I figured it out in the first 10 minutes, is as soon as you walked into the room, they started, “Well, the reason that the… And the reason why…” Ah. “And da, da, da, da, da, da. And da, da, da, da, da, da.” And I was like, “You’re splaining. You are splaining unnecessary. You’re, you’re making it sound like you have to defend what you’re doing because you should be doing something else.”
Lisa Murphy: And so we reworked how they did the tours. Wow. And it was like, okay, when, th- ’cause I was a vigilante mixed age grouper, so in the state of New York, um, at the time, I don’t know if the rules have changed, but you could have like the 8 weeks old to 18 months together, and 18 to 36 months, so 18 months to 3, and then 3s, 4s, 5s could all be together.
Lisa Murphy: And I did. I did that. We’d walk into the, the, the pre-K room, 3s, 4s, and 5s. I’m like, “Hey, this is blended ages. 3s, 4s, 5s. There’s three teachers in the space. We’re gonna stand here for a couple minutes. Let me know if you have any questions.” And then, then they showed me where the quote-unquote issue was, if in fact there was one, because somebody would ask something.
Lisa Murphy: But nine times out of 10 they’re like, “Oh, this is awesome.” Yeah. “Is the easel out all day?” “Yes, it is. It is out all day.” “Oh.” Right, right. And, and I say, “And what’s in the sensory tub over there?” “Oh, we’ve been on five tours this week. You’re the only one that had any kind of a sensory tub.” Awesome. You know what?
Lisa Murphy: I bet you’re… In my head I’m like, “Okay, got her. Got her.”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah,
Lisa Murphy: yeah. Right? And then what happened to enrollment? And z- en- enrollment goes up. And I think, you know, and I’m extrapolating here, you know, for one scenario that now I apply to everybody, but I think we tend to do that. We- ‘Splainin’. We, we start ‘splainin’, and, and that can be shooting ourselves in the foot.
Lisa Murphy: I, I assume that- Wow … if anybody’s having an issue with something, that they’re gonna say something. I’m not gonna be… You know what I’m saying? Like-
Rusty Keeler: Right, right … we’re,
Lisa Murphy: so when we walked out on the yard
Rusty Keeler: and what the parents- You don’t have to be proactively defensive.
Lisa Murphy: Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think we do that- Yeah, yeah
Lisa Murphy: because we’re, we’re wanting to show that we know our stuff, and we wanna show that play is important. But it, it, it almost like it goes over this tipping point- Oh … of actually not- serving the, the higher, the higher cause.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah So- So you’re saying, so in one sense it’s like own it. Just own it, and know that you’re do- if you, you know you’re doing the right thing, then know you’re doing the right thing.
Rusty Keeler: And- Well,
Lisa Murphy: you said something in your book, “What do you wanna be known for?” Yeah. And, and I, and I really took that to heart. You know, what, what do you wanna be known for? And, you know, I, I knew it was, it, it, it took a while, but when I, I showed up at the childcare center one day and somebody had thrown a huge cable spool over the fence during the night, and I went like, “Okay.”
Lisa Murphy: I’m getting… That’s awesome. That’s
Rusty Keeler: what I’m known
Lisa Murphy: for. That’s, that, that- They know And I, and you know what? I’m not gonna… I’m here for that. That is what I’m here. Oh, give it to Lisa. Give it. Oh, you chopped down five trees? Go give all those trunks to Lisa. Awesome. Awesome.
Rusty Keeler: But, but-
Lisa Murphy: They
Rusty Keeler: know me …
Lisa Murphy: I’m at a point, Rusty, honestly, um, that I, I, I started telling people at, at workshops, just pick a team.
Lisa Murphy: Stop dancing both sides of the fence. Don’t, don’t… Like, be consistent. If nothing else, be consistent. If you’re gonna wave a big banner of play but never make time for it, then you have some reflection to do. Mm. Like, maybe at the end of the day you have some questions, or maybe you don’t really believe it as much as you do.
Lisa Murphy: And I’m at a point where I’m like, I’m not here to convince anybody of nothing. That is not my job. My job is to be in service to what I have seen as best practice, to the research that supports what we would call best practice, and in my definition of best practice means the closer you can get to 100% open-ended free play.
Lisa Murphy: And I realize not every program can get there, but my job at a gig is to paint out ideally what it can look like, and then, excuse me, I, I believe the people in the audience, their job is to figure out how close they can get to that. Mm. How close can our center get to this while there’s still some forward motion, because there’s always a little bit closer that we can get.
Lisa Murphy: And, and, and then, and then, and then be there confidently. But, but, but don’t be telling me it’s the process, not the product. If you really secretly like cutting out all of those little shapes of things and- Yeah … gluing them on, like, if, if you really love it, then fine, but stop claiming alliance and allegiance with process over product if, if in fact you don’t.
Lisa Murphy: And, and if you really do believe it, then, then that’s why your practice needs to change, not because Lisa Murphy’s on stage saying, “It’s the process, not the product.” Like, you’re holding up that own, that mirror to your own self, and holding yourself accountable to be consistent with, with what you say you believe in.
Rusty Keeler: Huh. Huh.
Lisa Murphy: Well, and, and that’s tricky. And that takes more than one six-hour workshop on a Saturday, you know? Like that’s a, that’s, that’s, that, that full day workshop might launch something, but, and, and hopefully what it launches is some conversation between staff that are working together, between director, admin, um, of, of, of how are we, how are we doing our best at making sure everybody’s on the same page?
Lisa Murphy: And to that, let me name drop because I’m kind of dancing around it for no reason other than I just haven’t said his name. Tom Bedard, um- Yeah … taught me and thousands of other people one of … I, I, I think I say this quote every single day. “You cannot reflect on your practice until you’ve identified your values.”
Lisa Murphy: You cannot reflect on your practice till you’ve identified your values. And the first time he said that, in my brain I saw like a guardrail, a guardrail on a curvy mountain road, and that guardrail is the value system that is guiding our work as we’re driving that car. So when we get tired or frustrated or burnt out or we’re having a bad day or whatever, and our car metaphorically starts to drift, it’s the value of play, of curiosity, of wonder, of the spirit, of the natural way of being.
Lisa Murphy: That value is what bounces me and my practice back to center. Not a licensing regulation, not a policy, right? Not an accreditation score. It is the value. So at some point it is crucial, whether you’re a solo family childcare provider or whether you got a center with 200 staff, you gotta at some point identify the values.
Lisa Murphy: Otherwise, what ends up happening is you have 15 programs under one roof.
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Do you do any of that work, values work with your groups?
Lisa Murphy: Smaller groups. Mm-hmm. Um, we can tend … That is an easier leap when, like, everybody in the room works for the same company.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: It’s a, it’s a harder leap when you’ve got, you know, 2,000 people from all over the state, you know?
Lisa Murphy: Yeah. You can, you can plop it, you know, and I’ll usually joke like, “Oh, this is your Lisa Murphy homework assignment, is to maybe at your lunch break or on the drive home- Yeah … you know, some of you have driven, like, let’s talk about this. You know, what is even your definition of value? And, and are we saying we value something because we think we’re supposed to value something- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: but really maybe we don’t? And are we giving, you know, are we giving … Mm. Are we, are we holding space for the, the realization that maybe I thought I was supposed to believe something, but I don’t?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: Value work is a lot more, I think, effective with a smaller group that, that works together.
Rusty Keeler: Well, right. I mean, that’s
Rusty Keeler: Because somebody could have a value, you know, come up with their values, you know, sitting in a huge audience, but then they go back to their work and, you know, does that center have those values? What’s your culture of play? What’s your … All that. So, but maybe that would spark conversation. Uh, but you know, I know for me, like when I, when I’m, when I’m doing- groups and I, uh, you know, I got my workshop or keynote or whatever, I’ll have people like, “Let’s just sit and think for a moment.”
Rusty Keeler: Gets what, what, what, I don’t say value, I said, “What, what is your core belief?” Mm. “What do you stand for?” Like, what is … And I feel like that, I love the guardrail imagery of, because it’s like, yeah, that is gonna keep you strong. And it’s gonna keep, you know, when you go down to like what you really believe in, what you really know in your bones, in your heart, that b- is beyond, you know, beyond books, beyond co-teachers, beyond parents, beyond anything, you know that.
Rusty Keeler: And then that’s what you can be for the children. And when things get bumpy, when the days aren’t going great, you still have that. And maybe you’ll have your ideal of what it looks like, an ideal day, an ideal play moment, ideal, you know, working with s- co-staff. But you, but you don’t always have that. But if you have it in your heart.
Rusty Keeler: And I tell people like, “Whatever I’m gonna say all day, the most important thing is actually what you just did in your heart. Like what you just got strong and what you wrote on a piece of paper. Like that, that’s something that you, you might even carry this through the whole conference. Maybe that’s the most important thing that you got from the conference, and it was actually inside of, inside of you.”
Lisa Murphy: Mm.
Rusty Keeler: So I mean, I think that, I love that what you said about the splaining. You know, ’cause that, that goes into like, oh wait, I need to have talking points. I need to … But maybe it is. Maybe it’s just you’re tapping into what you know is, what you know is right. And in this day of age and age of things speeding up or academics coming down, it’s like, you know, we need these early childhood warriors who are, who are strong and, and the beautiful work that they do that is- Mm-hmm
Rusty Keeler: you know, that is so vital. And I mean, it’s not, it’s like a foundation for a house, but it’s foundation for people’s lives. It is. These children’s, these children’s lives. And that’s really, that is like the key, the key moment, the key moment in their lives to have somebody who’s loving and caring and understands the, the flow of play and the way of being.
Rusty Keeler: It’s beautiful. Yeah. And so Lisa Murphy, uh, I’ve of, of course amazing to talk to you. Um- Thank you as well. Yeah. So great. I, I just wonder, maybe just end here with like you said, like what are you known for? What would, what do you wanna be known for when, you know, when people think about Lisa Murphy and, you know, a hundred years from now, or people who, you know, that would just saw you in Maine.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. What do you, what do you-
Lisa Murphy: So when I very first started doing workshops, um, was back when you could be a member of NSA, which was the National Speakers Association. Mm-hmm. And I’m not a member anymore. They changed all the rules, and it’s been for forever. But the reason that I’m bringing this up is because one of the first little networking breakfasts that I went to, they had a speaker that said Pick a lane.
Lisa Murphy: Like, they didn’t say that ’cause that wasn’t a phrase then, but like, what is your topic? What do you want to be known for?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Lisa Murphy: And, and how are you gonna go about being known for that? And I still have the piece of paper. I’m like, I wrote play. Mm-hmm. I want to be known for being an advocate for play. And as the time has gone on and I’ve become more confident, um, of not, not deep play, not mature play, not guided play.
Lisa Murphy: Play. Free, open-ended. And my editor, God love her, I was like, “Free play.” And she’s like, “Yeah, that’s still a modifier. Like, you’re, you’re still go- putting it in front of it. Like, if you’re gonna bash this, you can’t then say…” I’m like, “Yes, but the spirit of it.” Like, I, it- Yeah … it doesn’t need to have an agenda.
Lisa Murphy: It doesn’t need to have an outcome. So you know, my, I like to think that when people say, you know, “We want a workshop that’s gonna focus on play”- that, that, that, that my name pops up. That- Yeah … that would be what I, what I hope. Yeah. And, and for the advocacy work of teaching the language, breaking down the language, like the translating piece, right?
Lisa Murphy: So if that wolf comes in and wants to know what your goal and your objective, and you’re like, “Ah, you know, somebody in a suit,” is taking that pause and, and, and knowing that I just have to think really quick right now, and I’m gonna call it something else. Like at the end of the day, if I need to call this STEM or science or gravity or cognitive development, what do I need to call it- Yeah
Lisa Murphy: to, to protect it? That’s the extent of that. But I’m not gonna stop the play to keep somebody’s hap- k- somebody’s happy. I’m gonna start learning the language that I need to translate that play, ’cause I, I see myself as, you know, that… I see myself as a, to go back to the house and the foundation metaphor, I see myself positioned in between the house and the foundation, like doing absolutely everything in my power to protect the play.
Lisa Murphy: To me, that is my ethical, professional responsibility, is making sure that that founda- sh- that foundation is rock solid before we cave in to that pressure to start scaffolding and building that house. So a long-winded answer, but-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Lisa Murphy: probably, probably that, that.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Gosh. Well, Lisa, you, you know, f- think about like people on the planet that are doing good for the world and making a change, and you are out there, and you are working hard, and you are, you know, you, you go full power as, as the listeners just experienced.
Rusty Keeler: And anyone who gets to, you know, be in your presence and get to be in your workshops and stuff. But you have opened so many hearts and minds- Thank you … and gotten people to- You as
Lisa Murphy: well. You have w- as well … to grow. Thank you. You’re very generous with the compliments. But, but also to all of your listeners, especially anybody who might be kinda new-ish to both of us, um, the, the, the praise Rusty is giving this way definitely goes back as, as, as well.
Lisa Murphy: Definitely.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, that’s nice. Well, I wasn’t searching for a compliment, but thank you. Um- You’re welcome … but ultimately, but ultimately, you, you, you’ve, you’ve thousands and thousands, thousands of people, and then, then you think about all those children that they, all those thousands of people you worked with, and those lives and those foundations and-
Lisa Murphy: If, if
Rusty Keeler: one little thing- Yeah, generations.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. One little- Yeah …
Lisa Murphy: one little positive tweak-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Lisa Murphy: can, can literally, I know it sounds very, you know, sappy, but it’s true. I mean, we never ever, ever, ever should we be underestimating the impact of, of one small interaction that might not even have been a verbal interaction, so. Yeah. We could talk for hours, so I will be quiet.
Lisa Murphy: Yeah. Say thank you again very much. All right. It
Rusty Keeler: was a pleasure to be here. Yes. Thank you, Lisa.
Rusty Keeler: All right. Thanks for listening Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at playnaturepodcast@gmail.com. You know I like talking about this stuff, and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide.
Rusty Keeler: Fun stuff in there. And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard, or loose parts, or saying yes to risky play, my favorite motto is, “Dream big, start small, and never stop.” Oh, yeah. Woo, woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right, have fun out there
