All right, here we are, episode five. All right. And today is a beautiful day in Ithaca, New York. And I’m sitting by six Mile Creek and the sun is shining and the water is sparkling as it’s moving past me. There’s birds in the trees and yeah, it’s feeling pretty good. Great day for a podcast. And today’s podcast is gonna be about risky play.
Risky play. I’m gonna talk a little bit about the benefits of risky play and kind of what I’m most interested in is adult’s role around risky play and saying yes to play in general. What do we say yes to? What do we say no to and why? And then can we learn and be self-reflective and say yes more because we know the importance and beauty of play in children’s lives.
So, I’m gonna go through risky play stuff, and then at the end, like usual, I have some questions that I’ll answer from listeners. One is asking me where do I draw the line with risky play and how and when I have to say no to things. That’s a good question. And then another is about how to talk to licensing about risky play.
You might be a believer, but how do you talk about it? Good questions. So I’ll get to those at the end. To kick off the risky play talk here, I thought I would relate a little story. I. For my own life, my own adult life, and so here I am back at Six Mile Creek and this spot on Six Mile Creek in Ithaca was a special spot for me when I was late twenties, and I was forming my ideas about children’s environments.
That was kind of forming my path of designing play spaces and wanting to connect kids to nature and kind of having all my philosophical ideas. And, you know, you might know the saying from the bumper sticker Ithaca is gorges. ’cause there’s all these creeks and gorges in Ithaca.
So imagine me as a young. A young man with my journal all excited, dreaming it up and dreaming of what my career could be and working with folks like you to do great things for kids and environments and design and all sorts of stuff. So I was down here by the creek in the gorgeous, and so here I am later in life in my fifties and I thought, you know, for my podcast, it might be neat to go right back for me the genesis of it right back to Six Mile Creek in my special spot and.
Then talk about these ideas and things I’ve learned in my experiences. So here I am doing that. But
as I came down here and started seeing where I was sitting, and I did the first couple podcasts here, but as I look at where I was sitting as a young man, it was right in one of these gorges. And our gorges are made of all sorts of loose. Sketchy shale soft rock that easily breaks down and forms gorges basically.
So here I am as a older, wiser man looking and seeing, oh, that’s actually a hazardous place to sit. I’m glad no rocks fell on my head when I was in my twenties or when I was doing my first couple podcasts here. So, Kind of that idea about, well, what are healthy risks and what are bad hazards and how to make wise decisions about where one sits to podcast and share and talk and about how children play, where they play, what they play with, what do they get into?
And I’m really interested in that. What is that balance? Between saying yes to play and protecting our children, and that what is the balance of protecting our children from things that really could hurt them, but balancing it with our brains that may overprotect, that may have fear or imagine bad things, and we say no, and we limit the play that we know is so important for our children.
So, risky play is a wonderfully complicated subject, and there’s a lot of ins and outs, a lot of moving parts. So it’ll probably be a thread of conversation that happens in lots of podcasts. So, as we start here, when the questions could be, well, what is risky play, I. Now for me, my definition is that risky play is just play.
It’s play, but it’s play that might make the adults nervous, right? They could imagine bad things happening or kids getting hurt, and so they might say no or it becomes a little edgy. Right. I’m all about, we wanna say yes to as much play as possible. We wanna create environments that say yes, that help us say yes.
We don’t wanna be saying no. We want, we wanna be saying yes to child development and growth and living and possibilities. But things can make us nervous. There are some definitions of risky play that many people like to talk about and use, and I’ll go through that. It’s interesting there is a professor in Norway, Ellen Sand Setter, who has done some famous work in kind of defining types of risky play.
And it was her doctoral thesis way back in the early two thousands, and her thesis was called Scary, funny. And it had a byline. But it was scary, funny, and it was talking about risky play and about this attraction that children have for risky play. Now, where my take on risky play might be the discussion about the adult role in it.
She was really looking at children and why do they like doing risky things? What is that? And so this scary, funny idea she talked about like this idea of like, it’s a combination of exhilaration and fear. This balance if you’re climbing trees or running fast or you know, cooking over a fire or playing with a stick.
There’s this balance between exhilaration and fear, and it could be all the way on the end of exhilaration, woo, pure exhilaration, or could be mix of exhilaration and fear, or it could be on the other side of the spectrum where it’s pure fear, right? But there it’s scary, funny. So she did lots of interviews and observations with children and she came up with six types of risky play.
And so the first one is great heights. Where kids climb up high, whether in trees, rocks, climbing towers, and they may balance meeting here. They may balance with the ground far below dangle from their legs or arms or jump back down. So great heights is one of the types. High speed is the second one. Kids go as fast as possible by running down hills, zooming headfirst down steep
slides we’re spinning on swings, so great. High speed. Number three, dangerous tools. Kids use tools like knives for whittling or saws, hammers, nails for building with wood. Number four, dangerous elements. Kids play near places and objects that could hurt them, like a burning fire pit, a deep lake where the top of a cliff
next to a gorge wall. Number five, rough and tumble. Kids play roughly with each other. Wrestling, boxing, fighting, or fencing with sticks. Or number six, getting lost. Kids play in unknown places like woods where adults can’t supervise. Okay, so those are some interesting types and the children are attracted to that.
And then other researchers have found that there are benefits to that kind of play. And when children are confronted with those things or navigating those things, they are decision making. What branches am I gonna grab a hold of to be safe climbing this tree? There’s independence. You know, but great heights or you’re going fast, you’re on your own you’re making decisions, you’re using your powers of reasoning.
Sometimes it’s risky play involves like physical skill. You need to use your strength and your agility or your balance. And other times it’s social skills. Having some courage to use your voice, whether it’s setting a boundary and stop that. Or using your voice to tenderly ask someone if they’ll let you play with them, asking for your needs or asking for help from an adult.
And all this kind of builds resilience and self-confidence. And when children try things and maybe they don’t succeed at first, but they get back up, there’s that resiliency and grit and that kind of helps mold children and sets them on their course for being adults that have resiliency and grit and can make decisions and test have social skills and be able to take risks in that way too in their lives, which is super duper important, right.
For all of us. And it’s also interesting when we look at risky play to think about the brain. The brain. Yeah. You know, for children it’s all developing muscles, bones, tendons, heart, lungs, and the brain. So just this idea of we want children to grow up confident and be able to make good decisions for themselves and be resilient and believe in themselves.
How do they get to learn how to do that? Bybeing in situations as children that call on them to make decisions, to try things out, to test themselves, whether that’s on monkey bars or jumping in a puddle, balancing on a log, climbing a tree, or asking someone for help, and that is actually a certain part of the brain.
- That is doing a lot of that stuff that we want to help children build. It’s the prefrontal cortex. It’s really the part people say that make us human, makes us who we are. It’s the part of the brain that’s kind of in charge of reasoning and problem solving and comprehension, impulse control, creativity, and perseverance.
It is where we process moment to moment input from our surroundings all the time, and we’re comparing it to past experiences and then we re react, right? So how do children learn that? They can only learn it by doing it. By being in situations where they have to react.
And so we see that all those kind of things, climbing trees, using tools, doing some rough and tumble. It’s all that being in situations and reacting and seeing what happens and then learning from our experiences and either. Doing it the same way ’cause it was successful, or learning from our mistakes and adjusting in the future.
And that’s the part that’s building that brain and it is building, it’s like the last part of the brain that needs to be built and it goes all the way till 25. So it’s important that children are exposed to those kinds of independent activities. Okay. So we can be like, yeah, that’s great. We want that for our kids.
And yet that kind of stuff makes us adults nervous, right? If we’re a parent, it makes us nervous. We don’t want anything bad to happen to our babies. And then if you are an adult that’s working with children, as an educator, a early childhood professional on and on we don’t want anything to happen to the children in our care.
And so we, there’s a lot to think about then as adults who are supporting risky play or want to support risky play because there’s that idea of injury. We don’t want anyone to get hurt climbing a tree or using a saw. And so not only that kids getting hurt, but then what are, whether their parents gonna say, or if you deal with health insurance companies and things like, what are they gonna say or what’s licensing gonna say?
We don’t want a lawsuit. We don’twanna lose our job. I. So there is a lot for adults to think about. Now I’m interested of course, in balancing, right? We wanna balance this stuff because we wanna balance it realistically because play is so important and children’s independence and their free play and they’re testing their limits, that is so important from their growth and development.
And yet. It’s hard. It’s challenging. It’s challenging. This stuff makes us nervous not even getting into lawsuits and licensing. Just the idea of kids getting hurt. We don’t want that. So we as adults we’re programmed to protect our young, right? We can imagine all these bad things happening and we think, no, we don’t want that’s why there’s been humans for generations and generations because we protected our young. However that instinct, if left unchecked or if we just go for the fear factor, the things that we can imagine, the terrible things that can dominate our thinking.
And when that kind of thinking dominates our brainwaves, we say no. We say no, and maybe not because something really is gonna happen, but because it makes us nervous, see?
When we don’t like that feeling, that makes us nervous. Or maybe it’s, we don’t want to clean up a mess.
And this could all be the climbing a tree, children balancing on a log, riding down a wagon, riding down a slope in a wagon, stomping in a mud puddle. But we want to say yes. So we want to check our thinking. What do we say yes to and what do we say no to? But really, why are we saying this? Why are we saying no?
And how can we say yes more? We wanna say no when it’s important, when things are really dangerous, when there are real hazards or you really see something bad, but. We wanna be self-reflective and not overstep. We don’t wanna let our brain, our thinking, our fear, kinda shadow the beauty of free play of children playing.
So with risky play there’s this, okay, those six types. Children liking to do things and sometimes the discussion about risky play is to do risky play or the activity is to, we’re all gonna try to climb this tree or let kids climb the tree. And so that’s almost like risky play as the the goal.
Okay.
That’s interesting. But I’m more interested in the idea of adults finding their ways to feel more comfortable, allowing children to play and allowing them to have their free flow of play. I. And maybe risky plays is just a part of it. Maybe it’s not. But just the idea of having the freedom to play and if the play flow takes you up over, you’re climbing up the slide to get onto the top of the play structure, that’s how it takes you.
If it’s sticks and you’re pretending. Everyone’s pretending there’s torches and it’s nighttime, or the sticks are. Used to stir some potions. Okay. Or if the flow is, you know, running real fast or balancing on the logs, that’s what I want. That’s my dream and hope for children is that they have the opportunities for just the free flow of play and where it takes them and it’s beautiful from the looking at the children in the play because.
That’s the universe, right? That’s the creative flow of the universe moving through them. But for us adults, it’s, we are the gatekeepers. So it’s do we say yes to that or not? And so at the same time we, it’s important to say no sometimes, and it’s good to have adults around. Now I’m all about free range kids at the right ages and everything out in public or in their woods, or in their vacant lots and sidewalks and that kind of stuff.
But at the same time, with age groups, it’s nice to have an adult around scoping things out. Right? Our prefrontal lobes are complete, right? We’re not in the building stage of that. We built it up so we can often make better decisions, we knowledgeable decisions involving children or happy 28 year olds in Gorges.
Right? Hey, my prefrontal cortex wasn’t fully formed back then. I was a late bloomer but now it is, and so that’s the balance. Of like, okay, we have our prefrontal cortex is formed. We’ve learned from cause and effect in our experiences and we can make informed decisions. And so that’s great, but it’s up to us to balance our fears with our love of play and wanting to support, play and keep our fears in check.
So. I’m gonna try to keep the thinking, the podcast’s a little shorter and sweeter these days. You know, don’t wanna ramble on too much. So in the spirit of that, let’s go right to the questions. These questions kind of tie in to the spirit anyway. So, you know, this idea of balancing our fears with the realities is a good place to start.
So here’s a question that says you recommend to say yes more, but where do you draw the line? Do you follow any guidelines or a series of questions for those times? You have to say no to certain play. Yes, I do sort of, you know, it’s kind of, intuitive or in the moment and it might involve death.
Like, I don’t want my children to die, so I feel very nervous when we. Happened to be at a Airbnb in a hotel that is very, very high and has a balcony, right? So no plane, no roughhouse, no climbing the balcony banister. No. You know, I don’t even like you standing near there, so I can feel that that feeling of like, holy Moses.
But that kind of boils back down to every day. We can look at risks and benefits. That’s a big thing. And maybe we’ll dive deep into that in a future podcast. But, okay the activity, they’re balancing on log or, you know, my sons are often in this creek and you know, you could get wet. You could slip and fall, and so that’s the balance risks and benefits.
Like the risk is you could get wet. But the benefit is you’re having fun and you’re in a creek and you’re balancing and jumping and you know, all that kinda stuff. So you’re weighing the risks and benefits, and then you can take it another step forward where you think, okay what are the end results?
Like really, what could happen? Now is it a death situation if he falls in the water? No. Could he get wet? Yes. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. Why not? So some of it is kind of weighing that, like, okay, well how bad are the consequences? You know, kinda like to draw the line at death and long bone breaks, you know, big falls stuff like that.
Another is this idea of risk and hazard. And so kind of as the adult, I feel like it’s our role to kind of look for hazards in clear environments or watch out. And then so children can take risks. So there’s different definitions, risks and hazards. In this case, we can think of risk being good. Hazards being bad. Risk being something that a child chooses to do could be a little dangerous.
They could get hurt, but they see it and they choose it. It could be bouncing on the log or climbing a tree, but the hazard could be, oh, it’s something they don’t see that could hurt them. So they could be balancing on the law, but what if there’s glass under there and they don’t see, or there’s a chunk of rebar or concrete.
So it’s our job to remove hazards so that we can feel more comfortable letting children take risks. Another quick little story here. My older son, when he was a toddler, liked to crawl up steps. Steps in our house. Okay. And I was there behind but he was pretty good at it. But I was there to, you know, sort of catch him if he fell, but then I’d let him go, you know, kind of by himself, higher and higher.
And then one day I kinda looked at the bottom of the steps and I saw that there was a, our front door opened into those steps and there was a door stop, a metal door stop bolted into the floor to catch the door. And I thought immediately it was like, oh, ew. I don’t want my son falling on that. That is a hazard.
So I got out the screwdriver and unscrewed it, pulled that, that metal thing out and literally like the next time he climbed those steps, he did fall. And he hadn’t fallen much before, but that day he did. He fell tumbled and the way he spun and fell blam, he landed with his head, with his face, literally his eye socket right where that metal thing was that I had just removed. Whoa. I remember being like, whoa. So, and it wasn’t there. So he was, okay. So that’s just to say that it’s, it can be our job to scan the environments, and if you’re working with a playground or your backyard you know, we wanna have some rough and tumble stuff.
We wanna have some stuff that they can be risky and wobbly and maybe they could fall off a log or you know, that kind of stuff. But we want to be vigilant in removing hazards, removing the things that could really hurt them in a bad way. Who, okay, question number two. I understand the benefits of risky play ]and want to say yes more to risky play.
But how do I talk to licensing about it? I don’t wanna get shut down. So that’s probably coming from a childcare provider, early childhood professional, preschool teacher owner, director. And yes. Okay. So licensing. And future podcasts. We’ll dive into licensing, you know, we’ll get some interviews with licensers.
I did that for my book, adventures and Risky Play, you know, we know that if you’re in childcare, that licensing is a huge part of the equation and what they say and what they think and you know, how do they react to things? Are they gonna write you up kind of thing. For doing things that you know are right.
So here’s this idea that we believe in risky play. We know what’s good for the brain, the heart, the body, the soul the grit and resiliency that we want children to take into their whole lives. And so we wanna ]provide those opportunities. But a licenser coming in might be like, what?
You have all these loose logs. You, there’s kids running around with sticks. I’ve heard stories about licensers being like there’s metal spoons in the sandpit because they too have that instinct of protecting their young. And it’s their job. They’re doing their job to protect children. And they have that instinct too, to see the bad things that could happen.
Right. So when I talked to Licensers, I thought, okay, this is, if we’re gonna talk about risky play, we have to talk about licensing. So for my book, I interview Licensers at the state and federal levels, the high kind of higher ups, and they all believe in risky play. They all know it’s important and know that providers should be providing those opportunities, those they wanna make sure that you’re doing it right. That there’s proper supervision. That you are removing hazards. That you have a plan.
And so they say that it’s very important to be able to communicate that with the licenser who comes with a clipboard to check you out. Right? Because, and I will say like, those people are just doing their jobs. And they come into your backyard or your playground. It could be cold. Maybe you have a long relationship with them, and that’s great.
And they know you and you know them. They know your philosophy and they’re believers. But more often than not licensers are coming in cold and they have to make quick decisions of like, oh my gosh, there’s sticks and all their grass is all grown tall and there’s all these like pots and pans, beat up pots and pans.
They have to make a quick decision. Is this negligence? Yeah. Is this negligent? Like, do people just like, is this just junk and they’re letting kids play with it. Or is this best practice is this best practice or worse practice. And so they need to make a decision. They need to kind of know which way it is because you know it’s their job to make sure things aren’t negligent and kids aren’t in bad situations.
So then it becomes your job to talk to them in a way that shows that this is best practice. You’re doing this stuff mindfully. That you have a plan. You’ve looked at the risks. Yes, you’ve looked at risks. But you’ve also looked at benefits of having a boulder or some tree climbing or berry bushes. And you’ve done this stuff intentionally and you have you, here’s how you supervise things and here’s how you clear hazards and here’s how you do safety checks and you’re reassuring them.
You’re helping them do their job. By showing that you’re doing your job, you’re working to keep kids safe, and you’re working to give children the kind of play opportunities that not only are fun and maybe they’re scary funny. Scary fun. But they’re also the opportunities for healthy development. That’s going to be good in the short term.
Children be balancing and building their bodies and minds and ideas and brains, but it’s also the stuff that will keep them healthy and strong and resilient and confident in the long term. Their whole lives. So it’s important stuff. Lots to talk about. We’ll get into more future podcasts as always.
Send me a question playnaturepodcast@gmail.com I’m gonna have some freebies in the show notes here. 10 Ways to Support Risky Play. And if you like this podcast, why don’t you tell a friend about it? Do you know a friend that might like this too? That might be interested in play and nature? And the nature of play? And risky play? And loose parts? And all that kinda stuff?
Yeah. Why don’t you invite a friend to have a listen? Or multiple friends? Alright. Well thanks for spending time with me. And have fun playing. See you next time.
