Phoebe Wyllyamz: It’s hard being human and it’s hard being a kid in an adult world. What are they being offered as far as like guidance in the world of human interaction, giving kids a lot of space to be wild and allowing them the autonomy of digging those big ditches and filling ’em in with rocks and covering them back up just because that’s what they wanna do.
So. I like creating those kinds of spaces in play work.
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen. Hi, Phoebe.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Hi, Rusty. How you doing?
Rusty Keeler: I’m doing great.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Sweet. Sweet. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yay. Yay. My first guest.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Whoa.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. I’m so
Phoebe Wyllyamz: excited to be here with you.
Rusty Keeler: I’m excited for you to be here. We’ll just do this for an for an hour. Okay? No, no. I’m excited. Well, I learned something new today about you. I thought your last name was pronounced. Let’s see. Willams will, you know, I didn’t know I was gonna ask you and then you, I
Phoebe Wyllyamz: get a, I get a lot of things I get, I get wily yams a lot.
It kind of looks like wily yams and sometimes I go, okay, yeah, cool. I’m a wily yas. I’m kinda wily, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. Yes,
Rusty Keeler: but it’s actually a, a spelling of Williams.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: It’s Williams. It’s Williams.
Rusty Keeler: Well, you know, maybe we should introduce you now. I have your formal introduction for you. Okay.
Speaker 7: Yeah. I thought
Rusty Keeler: I, I thought I’d read that.
Sure. Um, so people to get a little gist of, of what you are about. Okay. So Phoebe Wyllyamz is a play work advocate and early childhood educator based in the Catskills of New York. She’s currently a play work co-teacher at Woodland Playhouse, where she supports child-led exploration and honors the autonomy of young learners.
With years of experience running nature-based programs and creating play rich environments, Phoebe empowers adults to trust children’s instincts and embrace the messiness of real play. Her upcoming book, an Invitation to play the Play Work Guide to Trusting Children. Knowing When to Jump In or Step Aside draws on these principles, offering practical guidance for parents, educators, and caregivers.
Phoebe’s work centers on deep listening, thoughtful engagement, and celebrating the unfolding magic of childhood.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s where it’s at.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Amen. Say it again. I think
Phoebe Wyllyamz: the, I think the kids think so anyway.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Well, well, tell me about that. The folding magic of childhood.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: It comes from two different places.
One is like grounding ourselves in ourselves so that we can present to a world to children in a way that they can expand upon versus taking away from that world by setting. Big restrictions, a lot of top-down authoritarian kind of management of children’s play versus giving them the autonomy and the freedom to explore things that are valuable to them and their human experience.
So then, you know, there’s always boundaries involved in human interactions and a lot of social emotional learning. ’cause we’re not. Wild animals running ammuck. But you know, sometimes kids take a long time to get there and they might look that way. You know, big energy and a lot of things that they’re moving through in their own existence and yeah, so it just helps them by holding that space for them to.
Give them the autonomy to really dive into themselves. Mm-hmm. Find themselves. So yeah,
Rusty Keeler: it’s interesting. There’s always this push and pull the, with the adult, the adult world, and the. The child world or the adult’s view of what should be going on versus the child’s autonomy and freedom.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh my gosh, there’s so much and there’s a dance, and we’re always doing a dance and I, I don’t think, I don’t want people to get the wrong idea that it’s like child led means just like let it all hang out and just doing whatever the kids want and just kind of like creating kind of a monster in that way of like, just like them controlling everything and not giving yourself.
Boundaries and what you want for your space or, um, but giving them a lot of autonomy and what they’re choosing to do with their, with their play and spaces to engage in that.
Rusty Keeler: That’s one of the many things that I love about you, that I’ve always been inspired by, you know, seeing your work with children and, you know.
My own introduction to you is, uh, that you are a friend and you’re a family friend, and my boys love you. You’ve moved away and we, you, your name often comes up and then we all say we miss you. My boys will say they, they miss you. Oh, I
Phoebe Wyllyamz: miss them too. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Because they got to be a part of your play working world.
Mm-hmm. Um, in a, in a few different scenes. Yeah. And you know, and I think that’s. Why I always love talking to you about play, but also seeing you in action and you have this innate like deep respect for children and what their interests are, their needs are. I always feel like you have this amazing. Very balanced approach with children of their play and what they wanna do and supporting it.
And then you’re there around the edges to, you know, help things as they, you know, if things get a little sticky to help, help. Personalities or scenes or a risky player or that kind of stuff.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh, thanks, rusty.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. Absolutely because, you
Phoebe Wyllyamz: know, um, it’s super important for them to have that autonomy, to get messy and, um, and to get messy.
I mean, not just like mud play and. That kind of messiness, but being able to be emotionally messy. And I think that there’s this idea that kids need to behave a certain way that the adults want to see them behaving. And so that muckiness that happens in that social emotional learning with messy play.
Having supportive adults around that are okay with that. Like squabbling stuff that we always see between kids and it scares parents because there’s this big, big word called bullying out there and we’re all very like sensitive to it, which we should be, um, in this world, but without that early childhood messiness that we.
Help them understand how to navigate their communication skills with other children and how we, you know, just bridging that gap for them, giving them the right tools to help identify some of these emotional. Feelings that they’re having, whether, I mean, you’ve got kids who’ve lost their parents. You’ve got kids who’ve, you know, have different dynamics in their homes.
And so they have to work all that out through their play like they have to, there’s no other way for them to be able to do all that messy work. And when adults see that coming out in their play, it scares them. It scares them and it’s a big no-no, and it’s like, shut it down. Shut it down. And we, and we can’t have that kind of play.
Or we get feedback from parents of like, we can’t have kids talking about, you know, their bombs. That’s a scary word. It’s a scary word for grownups, for kids. They turn those things into like, wait, excuse me. What word? Bombs?
Rusty Keeler: Bombs. Bombs.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: It’s a scary word. Okay.
Rusty Keeler: I didn’t know if, I didn’t know if you said bums.
I thought, okay. No, but that’s a whole other thing. Like if they’re talking about their bums, sure. That’s bum. You know, we might wanna
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yep.
Rusty Keeler: Shut that down too.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: That down too. Yeah, exactly. When we hear these things from kids, they just, you know, adults. Tend to want to just shut it down versus like figuring it out.
Like, why are we talking about bombs? I, you know what I say to my kids in my class, I, when they start, like potty talk is like super huge, man, you know? You know Rusty, I introduced their kids to one of their favorite songs. Oh my gosh. In the world. And you know, there’s like, that’s one thing to be playful with it.
And you know, we’ve all said, you know, all different kinds of things. So
Rusty Keeler: can we sing the song real quick? Just.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh, farting. Yeah. Yep.
Rusty Keeler: Farting. Farting ist is a part. Farting. Farting is is part far farting. Farting is apart of life. Yes. That’s a favorite. That’s a much loved phrase and
Phoebe Wyllyamz: isn’t it? And isn’t it, though?
Is it true? It
Rusty Keeler: it, it is absolutely true.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: It is true. And so maybe there’s there’s
Rusty Keeler: not much as true as that in this world.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: And Right. And it’s so simplistic, right? And, but we like tend to be like, oh, we’re not gonna talk about that. There’s certain times that we don’t really wanna talk about that. And that’s one of those boundary things that like we can offer to kids is like, Hey, we don’t talk like that around the dinner table.
Maybe your family does. Hey, I’m not, not gonna, if it’s, if it is okay, within the realm of your dynamic, that’s your business. That’s your playfulness.
Rusty Keeler: You know, it’s interesting being a play advocate because often we’re just, you know, the first step I always feel like is like. Saying play is important. You know, lobbying for play, talking about the benefits of play, getting people to wanna say yes to play more or, or risky play, but just play in general and you know, so it feels like okay, we’re just trying to get people to just open up and just, you know, say yes or be mindful of the, kind of the top down, you know, control of adults, you know, the ultimately thinking that play is like the natural expression of.
Childhood and learning and growing and children are, they’re connected to like their deepest selves in that. So we’re trying to just like, almost like, let’s let the shackles off, let’s let the play flow. Okay. So that’s this first step. But then it’s interesting to like play and play work and adventure playgrounds or schools that that really go for play.
Once you open up play and really follow it, then it does get messy.
Speaker 8: Okay. Gets really messy, right
Rusty Keeler: then. It is. It’s a whole other like. Exciting journey, but, but it gets tricky when you really say, all right, we’re gonna really let it go and we’re going to, you know, we’re gonna honor it and respect it, but it is not gonna be within what we think it’s gonna be.
Yeah. And so how, how does the, the play work approach support that and, and, you know, help adults have some sort of guiding principle in that?
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah, it’s very tricky. It’s super tricky and you know, I want to see it through, like, there’s a process, right? And so like, I wanna see their play through and I wanna see like between the kids, because social, emotionally, we’re gonna be meeting people our entire, uh, my focus is a lot on social emotional learning in early childhood development.
So, and specifically like play and play work, because. There’s a piece of you that wants to see them like kind of edge themselves to where they’re like able to just say the words, you know, stop just the word stop, you know?
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yep.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: And giving them that, that message of like, you know, you can use that in play to help guide it.
And once they have that under their belt, it’s like this bridge that happens. So if things get messy. You wanna give, you wanna offer them what they need. Right? Because play work is about stewing things, right? We’re gonna always have different materials out. We’re gonna have a lot of loose parts.
Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. Um,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: but there’s also like, you’re also giving information.
You’re construing information. So I’m not gonna tell, like I don’t want to tell a kid. You have to say sorry. A situation, but I do want them to have the understanding of like how the other child feels and how that might make them feel and help them understand how to, the choice to do that, to choose to.
Handle a situation themselves.
Rusty Keeler: The depth that you’re talking about is, is very different than the standard. You have to let everybody play. You have to share with everything You have to, yeah. You’re talking about like, okay, people being able to own their own feelings or their own ways of doing things while you’re also like, yeah.
Giving hints or being a guide to, to be able to be there as an assistant.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah, and that’s the invitation. So kids know who their safe people are. They know who’s going to like have their back and like I’m working with early, early childhood, like preschool kids right now. Okay. And you know that I’ve worked with like so many different age groups, but this is where I’ve landed currently.
And the piece that I love about it is that this is their first introduction to really being with other kids in preschool. You know, they’re having more interactions, less. Adult interactions and you’re like bridging that gap. So you see a lot of kids interacting that are like being able to identify their words.
Hold that space for them.
Rusty Keeler: I think about supporting play and even that idea of risky play. Like, you know, I put risky play in quotes. That’s a whole other thing. What is risky play? And I always say Play. It’s play. It’s just play. And, and how can we just support more play? Because I feel like once people just embrace that idea, that play.
Flows and, and then you wanna say yes to it then I, I feel, especially with early childhood, I feel like it’s, our role is, is not to stop stuff and police stuff, but it really is like you’re saying that social, you, you’re like helping children navigate when things happen. There’s a flow of play and we wanna support that.
We love it. It’s amazing to see and watch where it goes and it, it amazes us, but then things, children bump into each other, you know, emotionally, physically, and emotionally and all that. And like you said, that’s the time when they could use our support or our, you know, just knowing that we’re a, a guide.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: And that’s often different than maybe the average kinda view of what supporting early childhood plays,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: right?
Rusty Keeler: Possibly.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Right. I mean, there’s a lot of needing to control the whole day. Of what’s happening through the day. So creating a flow and having like times of transition is always necessary in a schooled environment where, and even at home, I mean, even on my journey with my kids of homeschooling them, we still had a flow of our day and there’s certain things that you have to accomplish in the day, but giving them that bridge for them to be introduced to the value of community play and being together.
Learning those individual interactions or group interactions,
Rusty Keeler: that’s all new. I mean, we think about children early childhood. It’s all these new things. I mean, it’s new, like bouncing on a log. It’s new, you know, digging hole in in dirt. But it’s also new like, well, what happens if somebody takes your. The, the thing that you were just playing with or bumps into you or feels like they acted mean like, well, gee, what do you do with that?
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Right. And so does the, how does the adult react in that situation? I. Is it a peaceful situation? Is there a lot of yelling in the classroom or in at in a playground situation? If you’re a parent and you take your kid, are you yelling at your kid or is another parent yelling at another kid? And like, what is that interaction?
What are they being offered as far as like guidance in the world of human interaction? How is that being brought to them? And so that’s really important to me. It’s really important that it’s being brought in a way that they’re able to absorb it in a peaceful setting because you know, we don’t know where all of these children or where each family is coming from and what their background is.
And so it’s like this, again, like a community dance. So I feel that being in the community and offering that. Piece of myself of being able to be patient and helping kids have fun wording or remember like how we can be in our bodies a little bit. Like it’s really hard. It’s hard being human and it’s hard being a kid in an adult world.
So I feel that giving kids a lot of space to be wild and allowing them the autonomy of, you know, digging those big ditches and filling ’em in with rocks and covering them back up just because that’s what they wanna do.
Rusty Keeler: It’s interesting ’cause it’s, it’s, again, I, I think of that as like this, you know, with play work.
And the adult role, early childhood educator or educators or parents. It’s that dance between what the adult thinks and what and what the child wants to do often. Mm-hmm. You know, I hear different people talk about like, well, are we, how much of our, when we speak to children, is it directing? You know, how much are we directing them?
Go here, go here. Don’t do this, don’t do that. It’s time for this time for this. You know, as a parent, you know, I, I’m like, my gosh. Yeah. How, how much is directing? Mm-hmm. Or how much is like our agenda? What is your view, just in general? Like why does, how does play work? What is play work to you and how does that philosophy match with what I think of as your inner knowing that, you know, you just are, you know, you have this beautiful way of being with children and it aligns with things.
You know, what I’ve learned about play work, but what is it to you and in that role that, why is it important? Why is play important? Why is unstructured play important? And then what is the The play work touch.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. Play work to me. For myself, it just, it reminds me, and I know that like this is something play workers always think about what was their, you know, favorite childhood memory mm-hmm.
Of play, of being in play. And so it’s that I encompass that space for myself, which is outdoors, being in the woods. Not having any grownups around. So it’s like, those are like the main things, just outside playing whatever I wanted to play. I just created and I, and having kids around. We had lots of neighborhood kids, so I like creating those kinds of spaces in play work I like.
Bringing kids to those spaces, like I want to help create that. I’m a grownup in a play space for kids. That in my mind, there shouldn’t be grownups in that play space because this is like kiddo. This is like honoring the. Path of a kid, and that’s like an eighties way of seeing things. But I’m from the eighties, so it’s like I, but I deep down feel how much growth I had as a child at that time, was very secure in that lifestyle.
So I’m like, well, my parents weren’t around during that time. There were no grownups like around now. There’s definitely been this huge shift of safety and families wanting, being more indoors, technologically speaking. That’s also shifted things, and so it’s harder to get kids out. Into those spaces. Why? I don’t know.
Like I’ve always been, had a calling my daughter’s the same way of like, I need to be outside. I always, I like need to be outside.
Speaker 7: Yep.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: So I wanna offer that to kids to have that experience, at least in their early childhood, and hopefully get some grounding for them of like enjoying our planet and being outside and having those, those spaces that now why do I need to direct?
Everything that’s happening in this play frame, in this play space that we’ve created, no matter how big the play frame gets, like I’m holding this space for safety reasons. Parents know I’m here. They feel comfortable leaving their kid here with me in this space that I’m holding. They understand risky play.
We all love risky play and we all need to take risks. We need to learn how to balance, we need to learn how to do. You know, for the early childhood kids, I’m seeing so much growth in monkey bars and stuff like that, which is really fun. And I could go deep on monkey bars ’cause that is, monkey bars are really cool.
But I also like climbing trees. I think climbing trees is really fun and that’s super risky and there’s always. Risk of falling and having it turned reckless super quickly if you’re not paying attention. But I think that the, those are super important biological brain growth in children and we’re, we’re kind of missing it.
Like I feel like we’re missing it right now. I, as an adult looking at the world, I feel like, I feel like we’re missing it.
Rusty Keeler: There are children climbing trees, but you don’t see it as much. No, it doesn’t seem like it’s,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: no, you don’t see it. I mean, you know when we were over there at Wood Street Yeah. Park in Ithaca when we had the Just play project over there.
Speaker 7: Yeah,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: man, those trees had kids in them a lot and I was so thankful for that space. But it was funny ’cause. Even in play work, you have one play worker that is like cool kids in trees, they’re climbing high, they’re really doing it. They’re like, they’re feeling proud about it. And I’m just like, here watching them.
You know, like, and then you have another play worker that’s like, I’m not sure that I feel comfortable with climbing trees. I’m not sure, and I’m like, I’ll be the person. I’ll be the person, I’ll be right next to them. And if someone gets stuck, I’m happy. I’ll climb up there or I will talk them down. I will talk them down.
And that’s like. Such good communication skills. So they’re learning like body, like where their body is in space and time and like with their climbing and very good gross motor skills in their body. And, and then the communication pieces. I’m Oh my gosh. And the emotional pieces. I’ve, I’m stuck up here and I don’t know how to get down from the tree.
Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: You know, but then you’re there. I remember when we had this whole dead end. To ourselves as kids with, you know, neighborhood kids. But it was ours, it was our neighborhoods. And my sister got stuck up in a tree and I didn’t know what to do. I was like, I have no idea you’re up in this tree. We’re probably like eight years old.
Seven. My sister would’ve been seven. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 7: And
Phoebe Wyllyamz: I ran home. That was like the only time I remember running home to get a grownup. Was my sister was stuck in a tree. Mm-hmm. And there was a storm coming and we could see it, and the tree’s blowing and it’s not a very, like, big tree. And so I ran home, mom was home, she brought a ladder down and got my sister out of the tree.
But it’s like, you know, you know, you know what to do when you’re a kid. I don’t know. And that’s why it’s more important to get out there with other kids and play with other kids in the neighborhoods and do some exploring.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. And sometimes you’ll, you’re called on to problem solve.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. And you know, exactly.
The other issue is like, people aren’t used to seeing kids out now. Like when do you see kids outside? You know what I mean? Like,
Rusty Keeler: well, children are scheduled, children are indoors, they’re, it’s not, you know, during COVID when things shut down, uh, you know, all after school programs and summer camps, suddenly it was like, there were kids just in the creek.
There were kids riding their bikes. There was, I know, you know, it was like this amazing thing. They were like kids. Out again.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. Wasn’t that cool?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, it was very cool.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. And that’s when I did my play pod. That’s when you guys came and did my play pod. That’s right. That’s right. And I was thank, really thankful for that and what a nice thing to be able to do and have such a nice group of people together.
Rusty Keeler: Yes.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. Yeah. That was fun.
Rusty Keeler: And I think about your play pod or and your philosophy with this and, and what you said about that you are there for the children. That. Yeah, I’m a lose
Phoebe Wyllyamz: heart. I’m a loose heart.
Rusty Keeler: You yes. That. You said you are in service. Yeah. Of the children in service of the
Phoebe Wyllyamz: play. Totally. 100%.
And that’s not to say like where I currently work at Woodland Playhouse, which is really fun and I have a lot of great coworkers there. We are all learning and growing together and. We have indoor time too. It’s not just all outdoors and so there’s a little bit more management that happens of like our space and like, but that is also part of life and we’re, you know, the inside space is very different for me.
Is it different for, for you when you’re inside, like how you want to manage your space?
Rusty Keeler: Sure. It feels freer as soon as you walk out the door. Like, huh? Right, right. Yeah. It’s like, no. Okay.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: I feel my most play worky when I’m outside.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Inside is a little different. I have like some sensory stuff, so like loudness kind of bothers me.
Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: You know, so, and it bothers a lot of kids too. And so that’s kind of like also. The balance for me is being play worky inside, but also holding more space, like holding more boundaries.
Speaker 8: Mm-hmm. Does that make
Phoebe Wyllyamz: sense? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s interesting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it’s challenging.
That’s the challenging part for me, and that’s the learning part for me, is like how I wanna be with the kids is my outside me. I feel more, I feel freer and the kids feel so free outside. So I wanna bring them like all of the things outside.
Rusty Keeler: Yes, yes. You know? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, just to circle back, so you mentioned the play pop.
Tell about that. My kids were part of that and it was incredible and it was outside. Yeah. I mean, I mostly remember it in winter, but, but it, it probably went lots of different seasons, but it
Phoebe Wyllyamz: sure did. Yeah, we did. Tell us about that. Yeah, we did a full year, so a full like season cycles during COVID. Mm-hmm.
And it was fantastic. I had so much fun doing it. We had four different families
Speaker 8: mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: That joined in with their kids and we played in, it was just my. Backyard that had a creek running across the side. And I had some chickens that we did for COVID. We were like COVID chicken people. Yeah. And so we had our chickens out there and it was just really, really sweet.
And I had a carport, I just, and a shed, which was, which I’ve learned how important. Having a shed or like a big vehicle that you could slug things around in. Mm-hmm. Because my shed held so much different loose parts and it, it was great. So I, so I just put a, a dresser in my garage and filled it with loose parts.
Yeah. And I had a table for the kids to sit at and we explored. My creek and walked to McDaniel’s Park on some days and it was just like a really fun, sweet experience. I, it was just lovely. And I’m glad your kids got to come. And we remember we did the cray drawings on that hot plate. Oh
Speaker 8: yes. I had that hot plate.
That’s right. And we
Phoebe Wyllyamz: made, and we made huge snowmen and put ’em in the creek and the frozen creek
Rusty Keeler: rolled the giant snowballs. Huge. And because it was downhill so they could get, you had gravity working with you so you can have these colossals. Yeah. As tall as me, we
Phoebe Wyllyamz: had a great sledding hill and we. We even like made banks for it, and the kids had just, I had shovels, you know.
I wanna talk about loose parts for just a second here. I mean, we could always talk about loose parts, but, um, loose parts are really fun. Loose parts are the best. They’re, they’re, they’re the best. And Ithaca Reuse was like my favorite place to go. I’m finding it to be really tricky down here in the Catskills of like tapping in of those resources.
You
Rusty Keeler: think a reuse is a Yeah. So it’s sort of like a secondhand store? It’s thrift store, yeah. It’s like a thrift store, like a garage sale. Like people just do, it’s like a
Phoebe Wyllyamz: garage sale. Yeah. That’s a really great way to put it. Yeah, it’s
Rusty Keeler: gigantic. Garage sale prices are super low and things are on sale all the time, so, and you get, I mean, we could list it out from
Phoebe Wyllyamz: pipes and keys and bowling
Rusty Keeler: balls.
Bowling
Phoebe Wyllyamz: balls, and, oh, you name it, it’s there. If it’s not, it’ll be there next week. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yep. Luggage. Luggage. Oh yeah. So we would just, I would just go there and get loose parts and we had, I like, I love pool noodles for loose part, so Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yep.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: We had pool noodles and we just hung out and we, I would make a fire if we wanted to make a fire, and it was just really relaxed and the kids just did whatever they wanted.
Like I was just there. I was just like, I’m holding this space. You guys can play in my yard. Like it was fun. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: And, and yet, and yet there were personality conflicts, totally conflicts, challenges, and
Phoebe Wyllyamz: definitely always. And, and that’s just part, that’s just part of it, you know, that’s just part of it. When you,
Rusty Keeler: when you, you’re, you were keeping it real.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Allowing it to
Rusty Keeler: be real.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh, totally. And allowing them to like ask, asking for help. They have somebody there they can ask for help, like on the ready versus like me running to go get my mom. There’s like, my mom is there, you know, like right there. And just like, not interfering, but just allowing, and I’m here if you need me.
It’s kind of, it’s nice. I like it. It’s fun for me.
Rusty Keeler: Uh, well, you, you do such an amazing job. It’s, it’s, oh, thanks. Really in inspiring because it’s, you know, to be around you. I, I just came and observe, right. I would come because I just like hanging out. You know? I, I want my boys to have autonomy and be by themselves too, but, you know, I, I, it just made me feel good just to see it in action.
And the way that you have, as, you know, your, your way as a play worker just feels so natural and it’s just, oh. You’re speaking to children, there’s this almost as like a respect, mutual respect, almost as peers, like you are humans. I’m a human. You’re humans too. And yet there’s still the, like, they know that you are there as a guide.
They can lean on you, they can come to you and, and they’re gonna listen to you. You know, if you’re setting boundaries. But at the same time, like the. There’s such mutual respect that there almost isn’t that you Yeah. When’s really flowing? Everyone’s just copacetic, is that the right word? Right, yeah.
Everything’s just going,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: yeah. And there’s conflict, like there’s some kids that really push the boundary line is, you know, if you set a boundary, they just wanna like step over it. They just wanna go, what? I’m over here on this side. Sure. This is like, you know, and that’s, that’s, that’s the dance, that’s the dance of like, what?
Where’s the middle? You can always find the middle with somebody. You can always find the middle and be flexible, and you don’t have to be so rigid. And I think that that’s like, that’s where I’m coming from in this introduction to play. The invitation to play is that we’re learn the trust. The trust in kids.
Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: So it’s like. Being able to, to trust that they’re, they’re gonna be able to say what they need and know that you are there for them. Because if there’s no, like, if you can’t trust them, then they’re not gonna trust you.
Rusty Keeler: And that every day is different. I. Yeah. And people have different, different days.
They have good days, challenger days, no sleep or feeling bad, or not enough food or, you know. Yeah. Or some dynamics will change because a certain kid isn’t there that day or Yeah. You know, and all that stuff. And definitely. And then, you know, that’s sort of also the beauty of, you know, that idea of like loving play, honoring it.
It’s like this improvisation that’s happening and, and the play worker is part of that flow. So tell us. About this book. You, you are writing. Oh, you are writing a book. I
Phoebe Wyllyamz: am, yes. It’s just about done. That is incredible. So I started writing this book about play. I wanted to write it because I feel that we don’t know as adults, how maybe we just naturally interact with our children in our own way and, but we feel obligated to play.
We feel like we, we have to play with our kids. It’s like our, our job to play with our kids. At least some people feel that way. I’ve, I mean, I love playing with my kids. That’s not, it’s not a job for me to, but there’s some people that don’t know, like how to play with their kids. So the invitation is more about how do I come into a play frame?
Which is just like, here’s my kids playing, or my kid is playing and they’re playing by themselves really quietly and exploring. Maybe they’re pulling grass, maybe they’re inside building Legos or. And we see them working diligently on whatever they’re working on or interacting with siblings, and we want to interject our own thoughts and feelings about the play.
And so in that situation, that would be very intrusive for me to have someone come and just like interject themselves into something that I’m like deeply involved in. So I wanted to create. This idea that we can step in and step outta play and stepping out is just as important as like, well, if a child is.
Wanting to have you play. And they come and say, will you play with me? Or come play, come play, come play. And that’s why like my Instagram stuff is play Phoebe. ’cause I hear play Phoebe, come play Phoebe. You know? And so that’s an invitation because I’m a loose part. I’m like, I’m gonna play. It’s not a no.
Oh no, no, no. I’m not gonna play. They’re asking me to. And I’m like available and willing and delighted that they’ve even allowed me to come into their. Play. It’s very magical for them. Whether I’m just like, sometimes I’m a tree, I’ll just stand there. Mm-hmm. It’s not even anything, you know, a lot of times I get thrown in jail.
There’s plenty of that that happens. There’s so many different scenarios, but that’s the invitation. So I want ki, I want parents and caregivers of kids to know, like allow kids that autonomy of playing by themselves and allow yourself a break. For yourself when that’s happening that we don’t have to over schedule that time with.
Oh, we should probably go, he’s probably bored or they’re probably bored playing with whatever they’ve. Got themselves aligned with at home. I should schedule them for different sports or different things, but having that downtime to actually get into their own play and not feel guilty for allowing them that time to themselves and allowing you to have something for yourself during that time too.
Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. ’cause that’s so important given ourselves that rejuvenation. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: We could use it for our own play or our own rest or our own flow.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yes. What does it mean to you to trust children in their play?
Rusty Keeler: I mean, I’m a great like observe. I love her and I love observing play and just watching play. And I think just, yeah, I think it’s like just.
I don’t know. I, you know, I, it’s funny, I walk into spaces and there’s, I don’t, I give off some vibe to children. Like, Hey, this guy, this guy gets it. Yeah. Like, I’m, I’m gonna come up and show him the, you know, whatever I’m working on, or the, you know, and he’s gonna, somehow, he just looks like he’s gonna care.
Right. Like he cares about, you know, and maybe adults, other adults give off. A different vibe.
Speaker 8: Yeah. But
Rusty Keeler: I, I do care, like, well. Right. What are you finding when you’re digging with that stick in the dirt or,
Speaker 8: yeah. What,
Rusty Keeler: what is that thing that you, you built and, you know, I, when I get to the honor of the fun of watching play, like I’m mostly just kind of take a back seat, you know, my, myself just takes a back seat to everything and just kind of taking it in.
And then I love it when, then suddenly someone comes and they, they bring you in and they wanna tell you about it, and then it’s. Super fun and engaging and surprising and yeah, I, I was just at a school in, in Rochester, New York, and I was like, it was doing, I was doing professional development with teachers day two, but day one was just going out with recess and it was like, you know, school, preschool through.
12th grade. So I got to see all these different ages and it was just like watching it. And then some kids would come and interact and want, you know, me to be a part of it and others just ignore me. Yeah. And, and just a fun, fun just to see all the different types of playing kinds of play and I. There’s big kickball games with rules and them trying to work that out.
And then there’s kids that are bouncing on logs of everybody at the swings or then there’s kids that are just at picnic tables, just hanging out, not doing any physical thing, but just being there. Yeah. And then kids in sand and kids. And then I had a really funny experience where. The kids were throwing sand.
Oh, just, no, no. Like, like it was a windy day and they were picking up sand and just kind of dropping it. And they realized, oh, it’s going like horizontal. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I, they looked at me, you know, and I’m like, wow, look at, you know, that’s kind of interesting. And then it was kind, they had some name for what was going on and the sand.
And then, you know, I liked that nature artist, Andy Goldsworthy. And he would do these things where he’d be like, throw mud up in the air. Mm-hmm. And take pictures of it, like. Frozen in, in the middle later. So then I was, I started to, I pulled out a camera and it was taking some pictures of that and, and then kids, other kids got into it, you know, and I was, you know, risk benefit, like looking at, you know, it’s not going in anybody’s eyes.
It kind of away from everybody else. It’s, it’s legit. They can do this. It’s okay with me, da, da, da. So they’re doing it and we’re getting some good pictures. And then of course, then somebody, an adult that’s working at the school comes over, sees ’em throwing sand, and then they’re, uh, you know, oh, you know, we don’t throw sand and da da da, and, and, okay, that’s, you know, whatever.
That’s, that’s a rule. I didn’t know that. But even though it was totally legit, it was working. But I see this one boy kind of giving me this look like. Uh, it was almost like, you know, this unspoken thing of like, he’s like, I, we were being okay. You were seeing that it was okay. Yeah. Uh, but then you were letting us do something, but that they weren’t letting us do.
And it was so, it was an interesting dynamic. And then that became a big conversation with the adults the next day. Yeah. About throwing sand and, and all this stuff and rules and all that kind of stuff. And, and so, you know, so it’s interesting. I think just that idea of the. Play work or that some, an adult that honors play, that’s an, you know, I, I, I might have affected that play with my camera and I, you know.
Mm-hmm. You know, whatever. Sure. I changed it. And, you know, other, that’s another conversation, right, about adulterer, adulterating play, adult play and all that. Yeah. Uh, but that idea of an adult that can be a part of it, and on that level and thinking. Is as amazing and cool as what the kids are feeling and, and, and it really is.
And then being able to, you know, they trusted me, but maybe they shouldn’t have trusted me in that moment. That’s right. Right. This is an outsider. He doesn’t know. But just that idea of just thinking it’s awesome and loving it. But then for parents who, you know, want to do that more and support, or educators, we feel like, you know, we’d have to step in and for teachable moments, or that we have to have these set rules and all this kind of stuff where I.
Maybe it’s that freedom and
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: so I think, well, that’s why I
Phoebe Wyllyamz: think adventure playgrounds are so important, and I think there needs to be more of them in communities because it gives kids that autonomy in a space that they feel like they can really let their hair down. But there, I don’t feel like there are enough of them in the United States.
I think we need more adventure playgrounds.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Yes, we do. Yes. And we
Phoebe Wyllyamz: need just more kid friendly areas in general. Just in general. Yeah. Um, we’re just such an adult bodied space. Every moment is so like, not kid friendly, you know? That’s why I think, you know, you were saying something about kids just know that you’re like one of them.
Like you’re just, you’re okay. You’re okay person to be around. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 8: That, um, mm-hmm.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: I feel that where like wherever I go. Yeah. Which is, I bet like I go to the grocery store and kids will just like, they’re just like coming up to me or like, and my kids, my own children are like, mom, you’re like.
A kid whisperer. I don’t understand it, but like Yeah. Kid
Rusty Keeler: magnet.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah. It’s just like this, it’s interest. Very interesting. And it, you know, I, it’s the energy you put off man.
Rusty Keeler: Energy
Phoebe Wyllyamz: you put off.
Rusty Keeler: They know you get it.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: But isn’t that wild? They, they can tell. I’m so glad you have taken that. Just that inborn, vibratory kid, you know?
Speaker 8: Yeah. Cruel
Rusty Keeler: in the kid world. And, and you then are doing it professionally too. Phoebe, I am so great talking to you. Always. That’s okay. Getting together. I loved how at the Nay conference last year, we basically just hung out. You, me and my son Levi. Yeah. We just, we just hung out the whole time. That was so
Speaker 8: fun.
Uhhuh,
Rusty Keeler: uh, and I’m so glad that you’ve written this book. Thanks. Yes, that, thanks that you’re getting it out of you and into our hands and our hearts to help. Thanks. Yeah. To help us kind of see it’s,
Phoebe Wyllyamz: I appreciate you Rusty, and I appreciate your friendship and it’s always great hanging out with you. And Yes, share those mud day pictures because that was like, that was so much fun.
I love Mud Day.
Rusty Keeler: We’ll put a little clip of this, you know, a link to it on. On Facebook too. Well, Phoebe, thank you for giving us an earful.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh, thanks
Rusty Keeler: here.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Thanks Rusty.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, great to talk and we will keep the conversation going. And you have a Instagram, people could follow you on Instagram, is that right?
Phoebe Wyllyamz: I do.
It is play Phoebe.
Rusty Keeler: Play Phoebe. Play
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Phoebe,
Rusty Keeler: okay.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Yes.
Rusty Keeler: That says it all. I’m gonna put, I have a video of your play pod. I think it was a winter, it was like a either pool noodle battle or some sort of like, there was some good risky play at the play pod that I videoed and, and I’m gonna put that in the show notes too, so people can see.
Okay, cool. Yeah, see your backyard in action also.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: Oh, cool. That’s awesome.
Rusty Keeler: All right.
Phoebe Wyllyamz: All right. Peace out comes out. Okay. Okay. Okay. Bye
Rusty Keeler: bye.
