Rachel Larimore: How much do you really value experiences outdoors in nature? Just like how much do you value kids writing? If you want kids to write, you provide pencils and crayons and markers and things for them to practice writing. If we really value kids being outside all the time as part of their learning, then we’re gonna figure out how to get them the appropriate clothing to be outside safely
Rusty Keeler: Hi, this is Rusty Keeler, and you’re listening to the Play Nature Podcast where we talk about play, nature, playing in nature, and the nature of play. I’m glad you’re here. Let’s have a listen Hi, Rachel
Rachel Larimore: Hi, Rusty How are you? Good to see you. I’m doing great.
Rusty Keeler: Good to see you- Yeah … too. It’s, we’re, we’re approaching the summer solstice here.
Rachel Larimore: I know.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: My garden is going gangbusters too. I was just outside. I take, like … I don’t know where you’re at with your garden, but I take multiple visits a day to see how much everything has grown.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: I go out at lunchtime to see if it’s changed from the morning. I don’t notice obvious progress at each three-hour increment, but, but things are going.
Rachel Larimore: Tomatoes are blossoming and-
Rusty Keeler: Ooh … yeah,
Rachel Larimore: cucumbers are blossoming. I got teeny tiny little cucumbers.
Rusty Keeler: Oh, man. They’re so cute. That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did, I put a new bed in this year. We, I have a tight city in a, we’re in the little city of Ithaca, but I have a little yard in there, and I needed more space.
Rusty Keeler: And an interesting, like, uh, milestone, like, my sons, I had a slide that came, like, off our little deck by the back door, boom, but they don’t use that anymore. Yeah. So I was like, “Fellas, can I, can I pull that off the, and put in a plant, you know, a new bed?” And they were like, “Yeah,” so.
Rachel Larimore: Aw.
Rusty Keeler: I haven’t, yeah, I haven’t done
Rachel Larimore: that.
Rachel Larimore: But that’s also sort of a bittersweet moment to, like-
Rusty Keeler: It was, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: But we- There’s a little toddler that lives next door, so now it’s on their back steps.
Rachel Larimore: Oh, perfect. Yeah. Okay.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: So I can still see it even from the kitchen window.
Rachel Larimore: Oh, good. Okay.
Rusty Keeler: Yay, yay. So okay, well, how about I start, um, with your bio and then- Okay
Rusty Keeler: I’m excited to dive in. You know, it’s funny because we’ve talked for years and years and years. We’re, we feel aligned, and we’ve, you know, we have frequent, infrequent, you know, times where we chat to trade notes and things. But it’s, it’s not so much about nature play or nature- Yeah … based education. It’s more kind of our work.
Rusty Keeler: You know, we’re kind of peers and, you know, training, you know, teacher training, professional development, talking keynotes and all that kind of stuff- Great … which is great. Our
Rachel Larimore: garden, how our garden’s growing.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, how our gardens are. Yes.
Rachel Larimore: Right.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. How we get through the long winters.
Rachel Larimore: Ugh, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. But, well, here we are on the other side of that, so- Yeah
Rusty Keeler: so it’ll be fun to dive into all, all the, the nature stuff. I
Rachel Larimore: agree. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Good. Dr. Rachel A. Laramore is a champion for children learning with nature for the health of individuals, communities, and the planet. She is the founder and chief visionary of Samara Early Learning, an organization focused on helping early childhood educators start nature-based schools or add nature-based approaches to, into their existing program.
Rusty Keeler: For more than 30 years in roles such as educator, preschool director, and researcher, Rachel’s work has focused on supporting young children’s holistic development by learning with nature to expand their worlds and li- live rich, full lives. As a thought leader in the field, she is constantly considering and reconsidering what is best for children, best for nature, and where educators can leverage the common ground between those two sets of needs.
Rusty Keeler: A popular keynote speaker and author, Rachel’s books include Preschool Beyond Walls: Blending Early Childhood Education; Nature-Based Learning: Evaluating Natureness: Measuring the Quality of Nature-Based Classrooms in Pre-K through Third Grade; and her newest book, Reimagining the Role of Teachers in Nature-Based Learning: Helping Children Be Curious, Confident, and Caring.
Rusty Keeler: I love that. Curious, confident, and caring. These titles and more are available at the Samara Early Learning Shop. When Rachel’s not working with educators, you’ll find her wandering in the woods, puttering in her garden, filling her bird feeders, and– or knitting her latest creation So what
Rachel Larimore: did we learn from that bio?
Rachel Larimore: We learned if you’re gonna write a book, keep the title short.
Rusty Keeler: Just for the bio alone, right? Yeah. Right. For bioing alone.
Rachel Larimore: It’s like, I tell you, all my book titles, I’m like, “Uh, there’s something after the colon. I don’t remember, but…”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Anyway. The, the next, the next book could just be Nature. Nature. Yo, yo, nature
Rachel Larimore: Yo, kids, nature.
Rachel Larimore: Make it happen.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. You know what I’m talking about.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Right. Colin, you know what I’m talking about. You know, yeah, exactly. You know what I’m talking about.
Rusty Keeler: Uh, okay. When, so maybe I don’t know what you’re talking about. What are you talking about when you’re talking about nature-based learning and education?
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I do think actually that’s, um, a distinction, right, within this growing field, which is so incredible, of children- Yeah … and nature, is there’s so many ways that children connect with nature in their lives, right? And my, my little niche has been in formal education. So you know, there’s other people that are thinking about, how do children connect with nature out of school time, adventure playgrounds, right, and that sort of public spa- I mean, there’s so many different, if you think about a child’s day, so many parts of their day that they could be experiencing and connecting with nature.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: And my work has really narrowed in on, how do we do that when they’re spending all this time in school,
Rusty Keeler: right? Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: Mm-hmm. And how do schools support children connecting with nature, and particularly early childhood. I think we can talk about it at all different age levels, but my, again, it’s like my tiny little niche here.
Rachel Larimore: We talk about, by the way, a PhD is piled higher and deeper, right? It’s just this really narrow focus. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So my little narrow focus is early childhood and f- more formal settings. So whether that’s a childcare setting for infants and toddlers to a preschool, more formalized preschool setting, it’ll, you know, build a little bit older ages, or even that early elementary time in, you know, kindergarten, first, and second grade.
Rachel Larimore: And how do we use nature not only as a setting for learning, but also as a tool for teaching. Uh, children are already learning it, right? It’s whether or not we as adults are giving them the opportunities to connect and experience nature, and connect it across our curriculum throughout the day, and see that it’s all related, right?
Rachel Larimore: Like, we have to read about something. We have to tell stories about something. Well, why is that not our time outdoors? Why are we not, you know, building that relationship outside and integrating it into all of our disciplines throughout the day? So that’s my little pocket of the world.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Okay.
Rachel Larimore: So- Of this children and nature world.
Rusty Keeler: Right. Right. So I mean, it’s interesting, and, and so needed because while it is nice to have- a all outdoor preschool or a, you know, an, a preschool at a nature center or, you know, all that kind of stuff where that is, that’s the full thing. Most children are not in those settings, but all children benefit and need this stuff and are con- are already connected to the Earth, even if they’re disconnected from it.
Rusty Keeler: They’re part of it. So- That’s exactly right … yeah, so you’re, what you’re doing is so incredibly important because, I mean, then you think about the reach that’s really, and equity also of like, who, who has access to this. And okay, so l- Yeah … what’s that look like? What, what’s that look like then if a, you know, if you do traditional school, you know, working with the formal school settings and stuff.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us, tell us-
Rachel Larimore: Well, even just- … a little … your last little summary there, Rusty, there’s so much to unpack in terms of the fully immersed, entirely outdoors, right? Mm-hmm. What some people might call forest preschools. S- Here in the US, um, nature-based preschools is more, a little more common. Uh, right, we have all these different terms, but the, for that real immersive experience.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: But then there’s those that are less so, but then there’s the equity issue. I mean, there’s just so much to unpack with this, but-
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm …
Rachel Larimore: um, but yeah, most of my work, I mean, I definitely work with those immersive programs. Um, but, but my biggest audience is those programs that are more conventional, and it’s like they’re doing what they do with kids, like we’ve done, and it’s like, what do you mean nature?
Rachel Larimore: How, uh, what? What does that look like? And so often where we start is even in the indoors, and I know that seems a little funny, but it’s like, okay, that’s where teachers are comfortable. That’s where we can make small changes without a bigger emotional lift. And you and I have talked about, you talk about it a lot, like getting to the yes, right?
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: It’s, I find it’s an easier yes to say what if you had informational texts that were about your local nature? What if you had pictures of the animals that actually live here- Mm-hmm … wherever you are in the world, right?
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: What if your classroom environment represented where you are? So, like, if you’re in Ithaca, New York, does your classroom s- look like Ithaca, New York, or does it look like Arizona, or does it look like the Pacific Northwest, right?
Rachel Larimore: Those are all different places. Or does it look like you’re in a early childhood catalog with primary colors and plastic and- Eek … that’s that. Eek. Right. Hopefully not that. Right? But those, that could be- But it could be … shift- Yeah, for sure. There could be. For sure. Yep.
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Rachel Larimore: And that’s a place we can start- Yep
Rachel Larimore: to shift. And so then it’s even thinking about, okay, what experiences are happening in that indoor classroom with small groups or stories we’re reading, right? Activities that we’re doing with the kids. Have we just searched Pinterest and said, “Oh, that looks fun,” or have we thought about what children are actually interested in?
Rachel Larimore: And if we think about what they’re really interested in- And we are providing outdoor experiences. Those are probably going to be connected to what’s happening right now outside, right? Like, kids in Michigan right now are not talking about snow and ice. Mm-hmm. They’re just, they’re not. I mean-
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Right
Rachel Larimore: they will here pretty shortly, ’cause they’ll be like, “It’s so hot. I wish it would snow again.” But, but that’s a different… Right? That, that’s because they’re thinking about what’s happening right now. So building experiences that connect to where we are in our place, in our current season, and then that also relates to the- I love that
Rachel Larimore: outdoor play space. You know, which of course you’re well-versed in, you know? But the, does our, do our outdoor play areas not just happen in nature, but actually- change and relate to the natural world. So I th- I like to think about a natural play area as the play is different at different times of the year.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Um, because if it’s the same, well then to me that’s a playground more- Uh-huh … right, than a, a natural play area that it’s like, well, there’s always the slide, and that’s the same.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: But then, well, what’s, what’s growing in that space, right? What plants and animals are living there? Um, how has it changed based on the topography and maybe the, you know, what the snow and ice is doing and the water flowing, and so the play is going to be different.
Rachel Larimore: Um, and then of course there’s leaving that play area and going into more wild spaces, um, which I call the beyond, which of course came from Claire Warden in, in Scotland. Mm-hmm.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: You know, she talks about those three spaces, the inside, outside, and beyond the fence. Mm.
Rusty Keeler: Cool. Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: So I just refer to those three- Mm-hmm
Rachel Larimore: um, thanks to her. And, and that, I think of that as more, I use the phrase more wild, but I don’t mean wilderness necessarily. And actually what I mean is perhaps it’s even an emotional state of the teacher in that it’s going to feel less predictable because we’re just visitors. Mm. Mm-hmm. I haven’t planned that space, right?
Rusty Keeler: Mm.
Rachel Larimore: We’re all, the teachers and the kids, we’re, we’re guests there. And so that might be going to the local park, and I don’t know if there’s gonna be other people there. I don’t know if there’s gonna be somebody playing Frisbee or a dog running by. Or it could be lo- going to more wild, natural areas, and I don’t know what we’re gonna find today, right?
Rachel Larimore: I don’t know what animals we’re gonna encounter or plants we’re gonna find. So wild in the sense of, of unknown, right? That wilderness- Yeah … or the metaphor of the wilderness and-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Rachel Larimore: um, so-
Rusty Keeler: Un- unpredictability.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Exactly. Mm. And it kinda goes back to your point about equity. The reason I, I try to bring that point up is that I don’t want anyone in an urban area to think that we can’t, we can’t go beyond because we don’t have, we don’t have nature where we are, right?
Rachel Larimore: And of course, nature’s everywhere.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: It’s, and you even said this at the beginning, it’s like, but how are we relating to nature? Are we aware of our relationship with nature, right? So even in urban spaces, there’s birds nesting on the sides of buildings. There’s- Mm.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm …
Rachel Larimore: plants doing their best to grow through the cracks in sidewalks and, you know, on the, the tree lines and in little courtyards.
Rachel Larimore: And I mean, and then actually, those little courtyards are more dense with biodiversity many times because everything has to live in that little space, you know? So- That it, nature’s everywhere
Rusty Keeler: So there-
Rachel Larimore: I guess is my message
Rusty Keeler: there W- nature’s everywhere, yes, yes. Well, I mean, um, again, lots of, lots of little subjects, g- directions to go there.
Rusty Keeler: Um, gosh, I love the idea of, you know, the c- connecting to nature, going outside to nature. Either you have a nature play area or an outdoor classroom that is nature-rich, or gardens, or the, the, the grass and the sidewalk, you know, grow up the sidewalk. But committing to going out there or being out there, and the difference of that k- those kind of experiences for the whole child, the whole child, compared to, like you said, the playground, the metal playground with the plastic slide and the resilient surfacing.
Rusty Keeler: It’s like that’s the same every day. But you know what is not the same every day? One thing is children. Mm. Like, they are different. They have different rhythms. They have different moods. They are growing and changing from week to week, day to day, week to week, month to month. And s- so you have the same play equipment there, there…
Rusty Keeler: It’s like it, it’s not growing with them or they’re not part of any rhythm with that. Which, whatever, that can be fine. You know, children can have a grand old time on it. But the idea of putting them in, in the natural setting that is changing, that sometimes it’s winter and it’s the crunch and it’s ice and it’s snow, and then other times it’s the, you know, the thaw and the spring and, or the puddles or the, you know, the rain or the, you know, and what’s growing now or the full-on, you know, in our, our neck of the woods, the crazy green and it’s, you know, and, but we– L- nature is transition and children are always in transition and always changing.
Rusty Keeler: So that alone is- Yeah … the idea of like a living, putting them into, into the living planet that we’re, that we’re here on.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly. And that ongoing those ongoing changes. I mean, you s- you talked about that children are changing every day. It’s subtle, but sometimes, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes- Yeah … it’s like, “Whoa.”
Rachel Larimore: Yeah, yeah. You know? Like, “Whoa, you’re walking today,” right?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But they’ve been building up to that. It, it didn’t actually just happen. It was whether or not we’ve been paying attention, right? And the same with nature. Those buds didn’t just suddenly pop on the, on the tree. Mm-hmm. They’ve been really, they’re getting, you know, bigger and bigger and fuller and fuller.
Rachel Larimore: And, and so I think about children time and nature time. And so as you were s- saying that, I’ve just been thinking about that a lot, about these, like, subtle, the subtle changes that happen day in and day out. And the seasons, right, we think of these, like, four distinct seasons. I mean, we talked about it, like, oh, summer is this coming up, right, just a few days as we’re recording this, but we already are seeing flourish of summer at least- Yeah, yeah
Rachel Larimore: here, right? You said it’s green everywhere. So those subtle changes that happen over time that you only notice through relationship with the thing, whether it’s a child or nature or, right, the tree outside, whatever that is, it’s, that’s relationship over time that, sure, I could see it once and, wow, that’s cool.
Rachel Larimore: I, that’s a great, beautiful tree. That’s really great. But when you see that same tree day in and day out over a year, two years, three years, right, you start to have a different appreciation for some of those nuances that happen with, and changes that happen. So the big thing for me is that all of this is about a relationship with the natural world-
Rusty Keeler: Hmm
Rachel Larimore: that doesn’t just, doesn’t happen in an instant. It takes time. It’s like any relationship with anything, right? With a human being or nature or a pet. You know, you might really enjoy it and appreciate it immediately, you know, your puppy that you, like, fall in love with instantly. But you have to spend time day in and day out to learn all the nuance of it, and that’s where the deep relationship comes from.
Rachel Larimore: Which is why getting, just being outside, I mean, is a great starting point for most programs, right? If we’re doing that regularly, w- kids have the opportunity to notice those changes in the play area or beyond if they decide to leave the fence.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. So why, why is that good? What, why would we wanna do that?
Rachel Larimore: Gee, Rusty. Um.
Rachel Larimore: Well, I mean, well, first of all, I think one reason is for the planet itself. Mm-hmm. Right? And so as we have that relationship, and I think, I mean, Jane Goodall has had so many quotes about this, right? That we don’t care for something until we, we care about it, and we have this relationship, and then now we can care for it, right?
Rachel Larimore: But, but we have to have that relationship before we actually move into any sort of protection and action. So there’s that for the planet, for sure. Mm-hmm. And I would say when I first started all this, that was my motivator. And I have wanted to be in some version of nature and environmental education since I was…
Rachel Larimore: I, I don’t know. I got my first job when I was 17 working at a, a nature-based camp.
Rusty Keeler: Oh.
Rachel Larimore: So, I mean- Yeah. Wow … forever. Like, right. Oh,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Rachel Larimore: You know? I remember I had a wildlife club when I was in third grade. No one was in the club but me, but I imagined- Awe … that all my friends were there, like. I was like… And anyway, um-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah
Rachel Larimore: you know, my stuffed animals were my club members. But, but anyway, so that for me, it has been about plant, the planet and, and being good stewards. But then I’ve also, as- ‘Cause of the re- ‘
Rusty Keeler: cause of the relationship. ‘Cause of the
Rachel Larimore: relationships- Because of the relationship … that you
Rusty Keeler: build with the, the outdoors
Rachel Larimore: and- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And because, right, because of my personal relationship, and because I care about it, because I see the value in nature in and of itself. I think somewhere along the line as you get wiser and older, it’s also that there’s value for us as people, right? There’s, I think, I mean, I see the value of nature as its own thing without people.
Rachel Larimore: I mean, I wouldn’t blame Mother Nature if she was like, “You know, people, you’re messing this up.” ‘Cause we are. Yeah. Right?
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh.
Rachel Larimore: Like, “You’re done.” You’re done. “You’ve had your time.”
Rusty Keeler: Scratch you off like fleas.
Rachel Larimore: Right.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But there’s us, right? And there’s how we connect to one another, and I think nature teaches us compassion and empathy in those early years.
Rachel Larimore: I mean, all, any year. But I think that’s some of the, the power of it early on is kids can really relate to, “Oh, this, these insects need a home. They need protection,” right? “Don’t step on it.” Yeah. All of that is starting to build that care for something outside of themselves. And so that’s starting to build that idea of community and relationship and interdependence, because none of us are e- even, I mean, when I say us, I mean every living thing, right?
Rachel Larimore: We’re not independent of others. Mm-hmm. Whether that’s a, a tree and a bird and, you know, or us as humans. And so seeing that interdependence I think is another powerful thing with- nature play, nature-based learning, however we’re, right, this broad umbrella of connecting with the outdoors as, in childhood.
Rachel Larimore: And then there’s the individual child, right? What skills are they building? What knowledge do, are they building? Their f- I mean, all, uh, truly their holistic development, right? Whether that’s their physical development, I think you’ve talked to Angela Hanscom, right, about, like, all of our physical body, our, our balance and so forth and building our core and our ability to, you know, keep ourselves upright.
Rachel Larimore: Soil health, like Adam talked about. I mean, there’s just in the, the impact of our health to our social-emotional health and being able to calm ourselves, right? Being able to self-regulate, to find peace and serenity outdoors. Um, I’ve been talking more and more about spirituality, and I do not mean religion, of course, by any means, but this idea that we’re connected to something bigger than ourselves.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: And that relates to community, right? And how we relate to one another and value one another, but it also is our own individual happiness and joy. And so there’s all that social-emotional benefit. And then, of course, cognitively. I mean, science is all about making sense of the world, right? Uh, math, I mean, s- language and literacy is telling stories about the things we’ve experienced in the world.
Rachel Larimore: I mean, it’s all, all connected there. So there’s, there’s so many benefits, as you know, but, and I, and hopefully people are, as they’re listening to all of your episodes, thinking about all the different ways that nature’s so powerful. And I think that’s why it’s really hard to encompass it, because we could just go on and on and on about the power of being outdoors.
Rachel Larimore: We see it for ourselves as adults.
Rusty Keeler: Um-
Rachel Larimore: Mm-hmm … and we’re seeing it now on a larger scale, right, in terms of disconnect, uh, loneliness epidemics- Oh, golly.
Rusty Keeler: Yes …
Rachel Larimore: anxiety, you know, all of that.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. You know, uh, I’m feeling very hopeful because so much, it just seems like within the last, like, three months, so much research has just, like, popped out or the, it’s getting passed around or the awareness is there about, A, the detrimental effects of screens and screens on the, the growing brain for young children.
Rusty Keeler: Of course, we know teens and, you know, social media and screens and anxiety, depression. Um, but then also, like, the restorative properties of nature. Yeah. And of course, play, you know, the benefits and the natural way that we learn and develop. Um, but there just seems like there’s so much that is basically proving all that we probably figured just in general, nature is good for us and screens aren’t great for us.
Rusty Keeler: Even though here we are using technology to be able to- Right … talk across states, um, and all that jazz. But the idea just, you know, as you were talking about earlier about the relationships between nature or the, the, the puddles and the leaves and the bugs and clouds, or the birds making a nest, uh, you know, on the school building and just, you know, the su- and then, and then part of the nest falls or you see, oh, they’re bringing other things to stuff their nest.
Rusty Keeler: And, you know, even if it’s a total urban and that’s what you’re seeing compared to the iPad and seeing a bird build a nest out of the cart- you know, cartoon and, you know, all that kind of stuff is just, like, the two dimensions, you know, versus the multi-dimensions of be- having the relationship with nature and feeling part of it and, um, even the bird, just the bird doing that.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. So o- so then what are some of your favorite ways that you’ve, that you encourage people… So y- I love that idea of trying to indoors first, like bring some nature in there. Think about, you know, where you live and, you know, that’s, you know, the, the R.E.M. song, “Stand in the Place Where You Live.” Yeah. Uh, you know, and, and get to, get to know the place.
Rusty Keeler: Oh
Rachel Larimore: gosh, you’re gonna have to use that now in workshops the rest of the year.
Rusty Keeler: There you go. There you go.
Rachel Larimore: I love it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, that could be the, yeah, the entrance music or something, exit music. Um-
Rachel Larimore: My, like, walk-up song, right? I don’t know if you know-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Rachel Larimore: yeah, baseball. Yeah, yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Uh,
Rachel Larimore: so then- Sorry I distracted you from your-
Rusty Keeler: No, that’s-
Rachel Larimore: question …
Rusty Keeler: no, I distracted, I distract with my singing. So what, what are some favorite ways that people can start outdoors? Especially if they feel like, “Well, I’d love to do that, but, you know, there’s schedules, or I got stuff I gotta do,” or w- what if it, we don’t have boots for that, or kids are, you know, be crazy, or we don’t…
Rusty Keeler: You know.
Rachel Larimore: Right.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of bar- people think there’s a lot of barriers, and there are a lot of challenges, I’m sure.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. There are things that’ll- I mean- … make it more difficult, which we can dive into and… Although, I do wanna go, before I get into this- Yeah … I was just thinking as you were talking about more research and more talk about it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: I was listening to a podcast the other day with Trevor Noah and Brene Brown. Yes. And they started talking about the power importance of play- Yes … and kids playing.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: I was like,
Rusty Keeler: what? Yeah. I’m so excited. Yeah. That’s it. No, it- And I was like, oh … it’s starting to, yeah, everybody knows that there’s issues, that there’s problems, and knows, you know, maybe what they remember from their childhood, or what they know is right, and what they want.
Rusty Keeler: And so no, it does feel like there is momentum building right now- Yeah, it sure, I- … which is super exciting …
Rachel Larimore: I know. I’m hopeful. Um, but in terms of where do you start? ‘Cause yes, there are barriers, and we can get into that. Like, there are, there are challenges, right, of, of doing this work, depending on what level you wanna be at, um, where you wanna be on your nature-based journey.
Rachel Larimore: But I mean, some of it is just starting on those beautiful, what I call easy weather days. You know, we- you’ve heard that, no such thing as a bad weather, just bad clothing, and I actually think there are some days that I would call bad weather. I mean-
Rusty Keeler: That’s good …
Rachel Larimore: like, where I’m like, eh.
Rusty Keeler: Cliché.
Rachel Larimore: And so I’ve switched to actually to talk about hard and easy weather.
Rachel Larimore: Ah. Because-
Rusty Keeler: Yes …
Rachel Larimore: because it’s, you know, good and bad sort of puts this value judgment on it. Yeah, yeah. It’s like well, no, it’s, it’s not good or bad, it just is, right? It is, that is the weather today. Yeah. And so is it easier or harder? So the easy weather days are the-
Rusty Keeler: Love it. Love it …
Rachel Larimore: you just go outside in whatever clothing the child is inside with, right?
Rachel Larimore: Yeah, yeah. Like, those are the
Rusty Keeler: best days. Doesn’t have to be an expedition.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly.
Rusty Keeler: Right?
Rachel Larimore: There’s no like, “Okay, here, what do we do first, mittens or, you know, pants- Yeah … or blah,” all that thing. Um-
Rusty Keeler: I love it …
Rachel Larimore: so those easy weather days. Like- Go out a little bit longer, stay out a little bit longer, right, than you would have.
Rachel Larimore: Mm-hmm. Um, and that’s, that sounds easy, but, and it definitely can be a challenge for people when you’re talking about schedules. Sometimes it’s an issue of sharing play spaces with other classes. Um, but sometimes it’s just, “Well, what are we gonna do?” And I hear that actually that, “Well, kids get bored, um, when we’re outside for too long.”
Rachel Larimore: And to me, and you, I know you have the same thing, it’s like, well, that just means they’re missing something in the play space, right? Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s like they probably just need some loose parts. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And
Rachel Larimore: th- and they’ll be fine.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: You know? And also boredom is this tipping point. It’s pivotal, right?
Rachel Larimore: So that’s, a little bit of boredom is where what comes next is creativity potentially if we allow it.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But, but we’ve gotta also have some things for them to do. I mean, there, loose parts do make a big difference, but we see that and, uh, I, I’m trying to think of, like, some of these moments we’ve all been a part of where- I’ve never been stuck in an elevator, but it seems like that kind of moment.
Rachel Larimore: That’s what I’m trying to come up with as an example of like-
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh …
Rachel Larimore: we’re stuck here. There’s nothing we can do. We’re bored out of our minds. Our phones won’t work, and so we’re like, we make up games, right? We make up funny stories or… And kids are really good at that, of like making stuff out of nothing and making play out of nothing, right?
Rachel Larimore: Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But if we give them some loose parts, they can do a whole lot. Right. So, you know, thinking about how do we do that, how do we, in that outdoor space, are there enough opportunities for different kinds of play? And also, in order to spend more time outside, I think a big thing for me is helping people to think about the play area beyond physical play.
Rachel Larimore: You know, we, we tend to go there first, like, well this is time to run around and burn some energy, and yes, that’s great. And it may be that some of these kids wanna go over here and draw for an hour, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. That’s great. Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Rachel Larimore: You know, so but are there materials for that? So there’s going out and spending a little more time, but then there’s also thinking about, what are the materials we have indoors, like for writing and drawing, for blocks, block play, right?
Rachel Larimore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For the library, those same dramatic play, those same kinds of areas we often have in the indoor classroom. Do we have that kind of play available outside? Yes, yeah. Doesn’t have to look exactly the same- Yeah … but is it that kind of play?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And I think that helps people make it more successful outdoors, to make it easier to stay a little bit longer.
Rusty Keeler: To more choices.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah, more choices. More things
Rusty Keeler: to do, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly.
Rusty Keeler: Love it.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Especially in, uh, you and I have both seen the schoolyards that, you know, they’re lawns that have been mowed really tight, and there’s- Yep … you know, there’s not a lot of… There’s not a lot to it. There’s not a lot of vegetation, so they’re all off on the edges trying to find the one little shrub they can hide behind, and a little bit of loose soil under that they can dig in, or…
Rachel Larimore: So the more opportunities and variety within the space, and options, the better, to extend that time. So that’s where I would encourage people to start, is just go out more on those easy days. Yeah. Spend a little more time. Then maybe you stretch yourself to stay out for snack. And you talked about barriers.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah, we might have to figure out how to do hand washing outside. Yeah. We might figure out how to transport snack outside. Like this is, now we’re moving to another level, right, of how much- Uh-huh … how important is it for us to be outside- Yeah … and have those kids outside.
Rusty Keeler: You know what, though? The good thing is We’re all smart people.
Rachel Larimore: That’s exactly right.
Rusty Keeler: We could figure out how to have a, a good hand washing station outside. Yes. We could do it.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly. Well, and that’s the other thing, Rusty. I mean, you and I have been doing this long enough that there was a time where it was kind of hard to find a lot of examples of-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, right, right
Rachel Larimore: solutions. That’s right. That’s right. Right? And now there isn’t much of anything that people haven’t already figured out. Yeah. Someone, right? Yes,
Rusty Keeler: yes.
Rachel Larimore: Like, there’s so much of this nature-based work happening that there are examples out there.
Rusty Keeler: You wanna find a hand wash station that passes muster with, you know, whatever the health department or the school district and all that, it’s there.
Rusty Keeler: People have done it.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And probably even within your own state.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Um, there are a few except- there are a few states that there are not a lot of nature-based programs, but I think there’s now one in every state in the US, and I’m sure every providence in Canada for sure,
Rusty Keeler: so. Yeah,
Rachel Larimore: yeah. And beyond.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Yeah, so, so that, yeah, and beyond. So, so then take it to the next level of like, okay, yeah, what, what are the things that will, yeah, let you do some of the extra-
Rachel Larimore: Right … things you wanna do? So then we do get into things like you’re talking about clothing. So we’re outside now on our easy days. Well, how do we go outside in those harder weather days?
Rachel Larimore: And I think actually the hardest weather days are the shoulder seasons, where it’s cold and rainy, right? It’s-
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh …
Rachel Larimore: the puddle’s frozen in the morning, but it’s thawed in the afternoon. And, you know, kids get wet, cold fingers. And, or in the snow, that’s actually dry snow.
Rusty Keeler: Right.
Rachel Larimore: You’re cold, but it’s easier to manage in a lot of ways.
Rachel Larimore: Um, but okay, do we have the clothing to go out on those harder weather days? And that does mean doing a little more work in either educating families and so they know what to bring, having extra gear. And I always talk about, people say, “Well, we can’t, we don’t have the money for that. We don’t have that.”
Rachel Larimore: And this is where it comes down to how much do you really value experiences outdoors in nature? Just like how much do you value kids writing? If you want kids to write, you provide pencils and crayons and markers and things for them to practice writing. If we really value kids being outside all the time as part of their learning, then we’re gonna figure out how to get them the appropriate clothing to be outside safely.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And that’s a challenge. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But if that’s a value we have, right? So going out in all weather, and then eventually going beyond the fence, and that is also going to require some planning, ’cause we gotta make sure that we’re doing it safely, right? We’ve thought about what might we encounter when we go out, whether that’s non-human encounters of animals and topography, you know, ponds and cliffs and things, or it’s humans that we might run into people we d- don’t know.
Rachel Larimore: You know, we might, we might run into a drunk at the park. Uh, we don’t know what we’re gonna find, right?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And so do we have safety measures in place for that? But then-
Rusty Keeler: Taser.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. You
Rusty Keeler: br- you bring your taser.
Rachel Larimore: You know, we were talking about all the examples. I don’t think I know of anyone that has a taser, but we should…
Rachel Larimore: If anyone listening takes a taser with
Rusty Keeler: them. Bear spray.
Rachel Larimore: Squirt
Rusty Keeler: gun. How about a squirt gun?
Rachel Larimore: A squirt gun. Yeah. Yeah. But I know there’s programs that take bear spray, right? ‘Cause they’re going- Oh, wow … out into more we- Sure. Oh, wow. I mean, there’s programs in Alaska that have bears around all the time, so.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But that goes back to how do we do that safely?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: This is where we- Yeah … go into site assessments- Yeah … and context matters. So, right, what I experience even here in mid-Michigan compared to what people experience in the upper peninsula of Michigan is going to be different. There’s different- Yeah
Rachel Larimore: animal hazards there. There’s different plant hazards, human hazards. And so b- doing that site assessment and knowing what is it that we should be concerned about, and then how do we keep ourselves safe? Like, we, we know this is valuable, and that’s where we then move into benefit-risk assessments for different activities, right?
Rachel Larimore: Why do we do this? How might we get hurt? And then how do we keep ourselves safe to d- to do this all safely? So this is sort of leveling up. So you see that it’s like, oh, bring in some different nature related materials. Spend a little- Yeah … more time in a space that we’re already comfortable in. Maybe spend a little more time in weather we’re not as comfortable in, but in that space.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. And then, okay, now we’re stretching our comfort zone a little bit, and that’s where it starts to get a little stickier, especially if you’re a program manager or director trying to push your team. That’s when we start running into human, the human elements-
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm …
Rachel Larimore: of teachers and, you know, are they comfortable and ready and, and getting clear about our why.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm
Rachel Larimore: And getting, I mean, uh, it goes back to your stuff of getting to the yes, right? Um, and saying yes. But sometimes there are, we have to dig into why is your default to say no right now, right? And how can we make you more comfortable to say yes? And so for some teachers, like, like being out in the rain, they’re not comfortable in the rain.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, they
Rachel Larimore: don’t wanna get
Rusty Keeler: out there. And,
Rachel Larimore: right. And some of that is they don’t have the clothing. So one program I worked with, we were just like, “You know what? What if we’ve got staff, a sa- a set of staff gear that they can, they can just wear. They have boots and raincoat and rain pants, and that’s their gear.”
Rachel Larimore: All of a sudden, that class was going outside all the
Rusty Keeler: time. Yes, yes.
Rachel Larimore: You know?
Rusty Keeler: Yes, yeah. Yeah. And- I mean, that was something that the, you know, I did the Scottish outdoor preschool tour this, this March. Yeah. But you look at those teachers, and they all have the gear. Like, they have, like, the best rain pants.
Rusty Keeler: You know, he says it’s, they buy the stuff that, like, the electric- the electricians who have to go out and s- service poles any weather, this is what they wear, you know, because these people are outside all day, every day. Yeah. In fact, but if you sign up, you get a pair too. They, you get a- … pair of rain pants, yes.
Rusty Keeler: Because if you’re gonna tour, you gotta have the right rain pants too, so. But that’s interesting. Yeah. I always tell people, uh, teachers about snow pants of, like, you know, it’s important, right, right clothes for the kids, but also for the teachers. And let’s face it, everybody looks cute in snow pants, so- It’s true
Rusty Keeler: come on, get, get your snow pants.
Rachel Larimore: I know. I was so excited when Oki, so Oki suits, right, the full body rain suits for kids, when they made adult versions. Oh, yes. I was like, “Finally.” Yes, yes. Like, yeah, it was … ‘Cause, you know, it’s … But here’s the thing, and this is where we have to recognize the reality of early childhood education, ’cause that’s my, right, that’s my little niche here.
Rachel Larimore: that people aren’t paid well, right? Yeah. Yep. They’re, they’re on really tight budgets, and it’s like you’re already not paying me well, and now you want me to buy sometimes expensive-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Rachel Larimore: clothing that I’m only gonna wear when I’m at work? And like, you know, I mean, hopefully they’ll find a passion for the outdoors- Yeah
Rachel Larimore: and wear it more often, but- Yeah … so that’s when we do have to think about, okay, if this is part of their job, how do we provide that for them? Just like the linemen you’re talking about.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: You know, sometimes they buy their own, but often it’s like, “No, this is your work gear,” right? Yeah. Right. Right. Like, “Here’s your allowance for another hard hat or whatever.”
Rachel Larimore: I mean, it’s-
Rusty Keeler: Right …
Rachel Larimore: it’s same idea.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And so.
Rusty Keeler: It’s tax deductible for the organization to purchase equipment. It’s like equipment.
Rachel Larimore: Right.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. But- Just like we would buy paints or anything else in the classroom- Yep … right?
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Rachel Larimore: Blocks. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Now that stuff’s, that’s, I would say that is like the hardcore.
Rusty Keeler: You know, like we were saying- Yeah … like, “Oh, that’s outdoor nature class, da da da.” But I love kind of how we, if we dial it back just to the very beginning of just like, wait, you can just go outside more. You can just think about outside. And, and outside is not just playground and recess. It’s like the easy days- Right
Rusty Keeler: the sunny days
Rachel Larimore: And one thing I didn’t mention that I talk about a lot when I do workshops is the in-between space. So-
Rusty Keeler: Okay …
Rachel Larimore: some people call it, might, may call it a liminal space, right? Like por- but porch spaces. The space right outside the window, like for a bird feeders.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Right? To have shrubs and a bird feeder right outside your classroom window.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: We’re not necessarily in that shrub, right? But we’re having obser- we’re able to observe and see nature there. We’re able to see the weather. So I mean, that’s where I get frustrated when I go into a classroom and they can’t, they, some places don’t even have windows, let alone a window where they can’t see out.
Rachel Larimore: You know, the kids can’t see out.
Rusty Keeler: Right, right.
Rachel Larimore: Um-
Rusty Keeler: Right …
Rachel Larimore: and so to be able to see out and, and to then invite nature a little bit closer to the building as well. But to have porches that there’s an in-between. Like, oh, it’s raining and I don’t wanna be out in the rain, but I can be on the porch and hear the rain and smell the rain and, um, feel that wind.
Rachel Larimore: I mean, right? The, the power of smell is one of those things that’s, it just always blows my mind. But you only, that, that smell memory only happens because you’ve experienced it.
Rusty Keeler: Yes. Right.
Rachel Larimore: You know?
Rusty Keeler: Right. You’re not gonna, it’s not, the lilac, smell of lilacs is not gonna take you to child- back to childhood if you didn’t have lilacs as a child.
Rachel Larimore: That’s exactly
Rusty Keeler: right. Yeah, or the, or b- or got a chance to be out in the rain on a rainy day and what that smells like. I mean, that’s-
Rachel Larimore: Right …
Rusty Keeler: I love that idea, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And if you only smell, like for example, you’re, like go to a store and you smell the like rainy day candle. If that’s your only experience- Aw
Rachel Larimore: of what a rainy day smells like- Yeah … it never matches, right? You’re always like, “That’s not what that smells like.”
Rusty Keeler: Rainy day.
Rachel Larimore: You know? Or, or the lilac. Yeah. Right? The fresh, a fresh lilac smell on the tree out front is different than even the replica of a candle-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Rachel Larimore: or a lotion. So yeah.
Rusty Keeler: I like the idea of, of rain as nature.
Rusty Keeler: It, so even if you have all manmade playground and everything, but if it, rain is like natural thing, there’s earth speed right there and what’s it doing? And you know, as long as it’s not lightning and you’re, you know, for danger and stuff, to go out, to experience it, to watch it, to observe it, to talk about it, or to put gutters outside or to…
Rusty Keeler: You know, I like the idea of having like rain events, like when it’s raining you wanna go out because you’ve hooked up gutters and they, water’s doing all this wacky stuff or doing interesting things. Yeah. Or, or oh boy, it’s filling up the hole. It’s filling up the hole.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Watching it come down the rain chains and yeah, filling up the holes and-
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm
Rachel Larimore: creating gutters and yeah, gullies in the mud. And Carla Gull is really, um, really good about that lately. She’s been doing a lot more of this lately, talking about the loose parts- That we don’t think about, like-
Rusty Keeler: Okay …
Rachel Larimore: rain, wind. Wind is a loose part, right? Ah. Fire as a loose part. Um, yeah, just sort of some interesting, like, w- and when you think about it, it’s like, “Oh yeah, right.
Rachel Larimore: Why, why wouldn’t it be?” Uh-huh. It’s just not always there, right? Like, we can’t… I can’t plan for it to rain today. Like, I don’t have that power. Um, I, I wish I did, but I don’t. But it is, when it’s there, it’s like, “Oh yeah, that’s another-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah …
Rachel Larimore: part for play.” Yeah. And I just think that’s really powerful.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. And then that’s, like, the unpredictability of nature or the surprise or the change, or it’s different every day, so yeah. Yeah. Take a- take advantage of those differences.
Rachel Larimore: So, I mean, you and I talk about this separate from our, when we’re having official work conversations, but I’ve been talking a lot more about sort of the, the emotional side of our work and, um, kind of what we bring as, especially as educators and sort of our inner work and the work we’ve been doing.
Rachel Larimore: But I’ve been talking a lot more about gratitude lately- Mm … and just had a focus call, and I have a, a membership group that, um, we did a call r- on gratitude, and that true gratitude, like some of these real deep thinkers when they’re thinking about gratitude, is that it is a gift that was unearned. Like, I didn’t, I didn’t do anything to…
Rachel Larimore: It wasn’t an exchange in value or I worked hard, you gave me a paycheck. But it is that gift, like you… And w- and what made me s- say this is as you said, like, all of a sudden this rain is there, and what a, what a gift to have- Mm … a rainy day, right? Mm-hmm. And to be grateful for, wow, that s- that thunderstorm just opened up and the water poured and, right, grateful that we got to play in the puddles and because we had this gift-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah
Rachel Larimore: from nature of a rainstorm that- Yeah … allowed for joy and, um, wonder and awe. And to me, those, I mean, and we talked about the benefits, and I didn’t get, I said a little bit about spirituality, but more and more I’ve been thinking about those kinds of things, of how is nature-based education really supporting- That deep social emotional stuff of awe and wonder and joy and empathy and compassion and gratitude and things that are so hard to teach, really hard to measure, but I would argue more valuable and important than just about anything, right?
Rusty Keeler: Mm.
Rachel Larimore: So as you said that about a rainstorm, it’s like, yeah, that’s like the joy that comes. I mean, we’re talking about summer here. I ca- I have so many great memories of thunderstorms in the summertime. Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah.
Rachel Larimore: You know? Yeah. And the joy of an unexpected thunderstorm when you’re like … Or, or you’re out playing and you hear the thunder, and then all of a sudden you see the lightning and hear the thunder and you’re like, “Those were really close together,” and you’re like- Yeah, you’re counting, counting
Rachel Larimore: running, right?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Just running.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But the, the fear and joy and all of that, like, at the same time, and it’s like, it makes you feel alive. And then you have this incredible story to share with your friends. Uh, it’s just, yeah, nature’s powerful.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I, I, I love that idea of it’s like first just getting on the speed, nature speed, earth speed.
Rusty Keeler: You know, slowing things down, slowing things down off the iPad, off the Chromebook to like, okay, let’s watch that bird, you know, build a nest. Let’s, let’s w- experience this storm. Let’s watch it. And then there’s like mindfulness, so it’s like slowing down, and then it’s mindfulness, and then there’s the relationship that happens between you and the bird, you and the storm.
Rusty Keeler: You find your place in it, y- f- the place of the storm. Uh, there’s awe, there’s wonder, there’s questions, there’s discussion. There’s, you know, there’s e- e- experiencing it. There’s the kinship of you and the natural. And then as you say with the gratitude as the finale almost, like wow, the gratitude. And, and-
Rachel Larimore: Yeah
Rusty Keeler: this could be for early childhood e- education and nature, but it’s really like our whole life. How do we have that? To, to, to, to end in gratitude- Right … for the breath, the breaths that we’re taking, for the experiences that we’re having. And, and I think when you combine it with that slowing down and that presence and, and, uh, you know, curiosity and wonder, and then the gratitude, I feel like that’s like the full circle.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah, exactly. Well, it’s interesting you say that about time. So next week, next week, yeah, as we’re recording this, is the Natural Start Alliance conference in San Antonio, and I’m doing a session on the power of time, and I did- Ooh … a similar one with my Grove membership group. Because it is true. Time is so powerful, and yet we, it’s a construct we’ve, we’ve made up, right, in terms of measurement.
Rachel Larimore: But it i- it’s also this feeling. We have a feeling related to time all, uh, I mean, at every moment, and everyone is in a different place when that’s ha- like, I’m feeling like I don’t have enough time. Everything, ah, right? It’s rushed, and hurry, hurry, hurry, to wow, I’m in the flow, and like, things are, the pace is easy, and this is just, we’ve got a wa- sometimes I feel like, oh, I have all day.
Rachel Larimore: Like, no hurry, right? But, but that relationship with time very much impacts how we teach.
Rusty Keeler: Mm.
Rachel Larimore: And especially how we teach with nature, right? If I am recognizing that I have to slow this pace and allow them to just be out here in the play area for a long stretch of time, and let go of the written schedule perhaps, right?
Rachel Larimore: And say, “You know what? They’re deeply engaged in play right now. I’m gonna let them keep playing.”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And so, so that relationship that we have ourselves as adults with time absolutely impacts how we support kids to spend time outside and, and play, right? Like, we know the longer stretches of play, the better, and yet adults sitting around, especially in a formal education setting, right?
Rachel Larimore: When you’re kind of s- you’re around them while they’re playing, and you’re not actively playing, so you’re sort of like, “I’m bored. I’m ready to be done. Let’s go back inside. Let’s mix it up,” right? Uh-huh. And the kids are like, “No, I’m still playing. Don’t interrupt me.” No, need
Rusty Keeler: sustained, yeah, yeah.
Rachel Larimore: So yeah, the more…
Rachel Larimore: And that all comes back to, I, I mean, again, you and I have talked about this, but I’ve been talking about a lot more in my work, is how we show up as individuals and the work we have done ourselves in terms of our self-awareness, self-acceptance, right? And, and intentional work to maybe adjust things that like aren’t as supportive, right?
Rachel Larimore: Behaviors we have that aren’t as helpful. So, you know, I might recognize in myself that I am a clock watcher, and I’m like, “We have to go to small group in five minutes.” And then it’s like, “Wait, we’re five minutes late for small group. Now we must go, go, go.”
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh.
Rachel Larimore: Right? And I have enough awareness to say, “Okay, Rachel, this is just your attachment to the schedule, and why are you in a hurry?
Rachel Larimore: Like, what is it you want to accomplish?” And maybe it’s, “Well, I spent all this time planning this activity, and I want them to do it.” Okay. Maybe you do it tomorrow, right?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Like, or maybe it’s like, well, that’s, today’s, that’s not the priority. That’s not what, you know, matters. We’ll do that some other time, you know?
Rachel Larimore: So, but that takes real self-awareness and focus. And so it’s something I don’t think we, we sort of talk about in education, but not a lot, of how we individually are showing up to our work. Uh-huh. Makes a huge difference.
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh.
Rachel Larimore: And control. I mean, it comes up in risky play, right? Don’t do that. Do do this. Do that.
Rachel Larimore: That’s all my sense of control- Mm-hmm … or a need for control, a need for a sense of safety. And, and so that’s where it’s like we can be aware that that’s happening, and then, all right, how do I be more mindful and intentional in this? So with risky play, maybe it’s doing a benefit/risk analysis, right, in that moment.
Rachel Larimore: Like, all right, what really is, what’s the benefit, but really what could go wrong, and what, what do I have control over that we could adjust and make changes? And what do I have to say? Oh, that’s just discomfort right now, you know?
Rusty Keeler: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: But it’s okay discomfort, right? And there is a difference. There is- Yeah
Rachel Larimore: and that’s some of that, and that goes back to, sorry, now see how it’s all connected. You were asking about the benefits, like the benefits of this, of play, especially risky play. We tell people all the time to trust your gut. But so often people haven’t had an opportunity to know what that feels like, right?
Rachel Larimore: And that’s what risky play can offer.
Rusty Keeler: Hmm.
Rachel Larimore: Is your body saying, “I don’t think that’s a good idea,” right? That’s your nervous system like, “Uh-uh.” Right? Yep.
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Rachel Larimore: And, but then other times it’s like, “Oh no, it’s okay. My nervous system’s fine with this,” right? Mm-hmm. And so recognizing that difference. Um, so it’s all connected, like the world we live in and
Rusty Keeler: nature.
Rusty Keeler: The interconnectedness, man.
Rachel Larimore: Love it.
Rusty Keeler: That’s what we’re talking about. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, there’s so much, so much to talk about. We’ll, we can think of this as part one.
Rachel Larimore: Okay.
Rusty Keeler: Um, how-
Rachel Larimore: I know you and I could just go and go and go.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah, no, this is great. And I especially love, you know, we, we did, we talked practical, you know?
Rusty Keeler: And we’re, we’re, we have both the aspirational and the philosophical, and that, I love that. But also then w- today we covered a lot of practical stuff of like what people can do and, you know, how to take small steps, and that’s great. But, uh, maybe part two where we can go deeper into, you know, the spiritual, the gratitude and- Yeah
Rusty Keeler: you know, I love that idea of the time. Yeah. I would like to hear more about that. I’m a- I’ll let you have the last word here, but can I share a very funny thing that my son’s fourth grade teacher had them do at the end of the year to, for a little nature experiment?
Rachel Larimore: Oh, gosh. Oh,
Rusty Keeler: gosh. Yeah, yeah. She said to let, bring, have the kids bring in an old pair of socks, just an old that you don’t mind getting dirty.
Rusty Keeler: Okay. Why? That’s, okay, I’m very curious. Okay. Well, so I don’t know where she heard about doing this, but she had all the kids put on the socks over their shoes, and there’s like, you know, fie- kind of fields next to the school and stuff- Yeah … and have them run around. Have you done that? Do you know that method?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that a classic? Okay.
Rachel Larimore: I knew where you were going. I was like, “Yeah, no, keep going ’cause people listening might
Rusty Keeler: not know.” Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So run, run all around, get ’em muddy. G- you’re over weeds, you’re over, you know, in, in the hedgerow, and all this stuff. So but the idea is that you’re getting it muddy and you are picking up seeds, tons of seeds.
Rusty Keeler: So then you take that, those dirty old s- socks and you stick ’em in a plastic bag, Ziploc bag, and you, they put it in the window, and then you’ve got a little terrarium. It’s got its own moisture and everything, and then you see things sprouting on the dirty socks.
Rachel Larimore: That’s cool. I’ve never heard the sprouting part.
Rusty Keeler: Oh.
Rachel Larimore: Oh. Yeah. Okay. I’ve just done the, like, let’s look for, you know, look for the seeds that are in the- Yeah,
Rusty Keeler: yeah …
Rachel Larimore: but that’s fabulous.
Rusty Keeler: That’s- Then it sprouts off the socks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so yeah. So I came in, like, a couple of weeks later, I was like, “Where are those socks? Where are those socks?” And sure enough, like, look, there’s a little sprout, there’s a little sprout.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, so things are-
Rachel Larimore: That’s cool …
Rusty Keeler: growing.
Rachel Larimore: That’s very cool. Yeah. Yeah. And back to that interconnectedness, right? That actually those seeds need the deer or fourth graders in their socks-
Rusty Keeler: Yep.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah … to walk by to, like, continue to spread that seed so that it’ll grow somewhere else. Like, that’s part of that transport, you know?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And of course, there’s different kinds of seeds that latch on like Velcro versus those that float in the air and all that, but that’s all that interconnectedness. And that the seeds require the wind or they require that deer fur, you know, or hair as it’s walking by and, like, yeah. It’s all, it’s all connected, and I think this is the big thing for me with nature-based education.
Rachel Larimore: It’s all connected whether we’re aware of it or not. Nature i- that the ecosystem, the broader ecosystem that we’re a part of is happening whether we’re aware of it or not. Yeah. We are having an impact, and it is having an impact on us, and it’s how mindful and aware we are of that relationship and also how much we’re caring for that relationship.
Rachel Larimore: Just like, right, you and I have a friendship, and we can, we can nurture that, and we can be kind to each other, or we can be awful, or we could just never speak again. And it’s like, we still have that relationship, but it has disintegrated because of our, our efforts in that process, too. So it’s the same with the world around us.
Rachel Larimore: It’s like it’s, we still always have that relationship. We’re always having an impact both directions, but are we taking care of it and nurturing it, the relationship, let alone the individuals in the relationships?
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And children will feel like they are in a relationship when they have the opportunity to be with nature, and it doesn’t take a, a big park to do it.
Rusty Keeler: It’s, it’s the little things, the little bugs, the little plants, the little bird building its nest. It doesn’t take a lot. Exactly. But they’ll feel it, and they feel it right away. And when you’re around children in a little bit of nature, it’s contagious. Like, you feel it too because they are feeling so connected to it.
Rachel Larimore: Right.
Rusty Keeler: But they just need that opportunity.
Rachel Larimore: Exactly. And all those relationship pieces that we’ll talk about at another time, but just thinking about naming. Kids are really big into naming things, right? And sometimes as adults, I find this as a barrier sometimes for nature-based education is people are like, “Well, I don’t know all the birds in our area.
Rachel Larimore: I don’t know the names of the trees.”
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Well, you don’t have to know the scientific, what scientists have agreed is the name, right? Kids are naming it all the time. Yeah. I mean, we had a tree- Yeah … we had a tree when I was the director that was the butt tree ’cause it looked like it had a…
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, I can picture
Rachel Larimore: it.
Rachel Larimore: You know? It looked like a butt. And so everybody knew that that was the butt tree. The butt tree. And so-
Rusty Keeler: Yeah …
Rachel Larimore: but that naming is part of relationship, and that’s, that’s just one more element. There’s so many things we could get into just in terms of that.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah. Yeah. I just heard some quote recently that said, “Once you tell a child the formal name of that bird, it’s…
Rusty Keeler: you’ve almost ruined it for them.”
Rachel Larimore: Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: There’s something, I can’t remember the exact quote, but it was something like that of like, yeah, once you formalize it that way, then it kinda loses some of the magic and, and- Yeah … th- because they’re having a, a multidimensional experience and relationship with that bird.
Rusty Keeler: We don’t… And, and for us, we just, we think, you know, “Oh, it’s a teachable moment. That is a, uh, red-breasted…” You know, whatever it is. Um, but Yeah, they are seeing it and feeling it in different ways, or they can imagine what the thing is thinking or it’s feeling or it’s finding, you know, trying to feed its babies or it’s, you know, the whole, the whole thing and-
Rachel Larimore: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And how, what they notice about it, right, is often what they, yeah, it, or what they connect to other things in their life. So a story that, that came to mind as you were saying that, ’cause I was thinking about birds, and I was like, “Oh, the Mohawk bird,” which reminded me of a story of a kid that had a leaf, and so he had, um, an oak leaf, and he was like, “Oh, this is a red oak leaf,” which I was so impressed that he knew, ’cause most adults- Mm-hmm
Rachel Larimore: don’t know the difference between a red oak and a white oak leaf, right? Yeah. And I was like, “Okay, four-year-old little genius,” you know?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah,
Rachel Larimore: yeah. He had another leaf in his hand, and I was like, “Smarty pants, what’s that leaf?” You know, ’cause I was like, “Mm.” And he looked and it had really toothed edges on it.
Rachel Larimore: I’m still not really sure. I can’t remember what it was. But, um, and he, he looked at it, and he looked up at me, and he looked back at that leaf, and he was like, “It’s a Mohawk leaf,” because he had a Mohawk hairdo.
Rusty Keeler: Ah.
Rachel Larimore: And so, but at first you’re like, “Oh, that’s cute.” But he noticed what was most important about that leaf.
Rachel Larimore: He noticed what was cool about it. So just like with the birds, it’s like, well, I noticed it’s, you know, the pileated woodpecker with its big crazy hairdo, you know? Yeah. And it’s black and white. And, like, they notice it, but they called it… Maybe they, you know, had some other name for it. So anyway, just that sometimes also the fun names and the relationships and stories they’re telling about what they’re seeing in nature also tells us cognitive skills that they’re developing as well, right?
Rachel Larimore: Observations- Mm-hmm … they’re making.
Rusty Keeler: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Larimore: Things that they’re noticing about how the animal moves or… But so it’s all interconnected. Have you noticed a theme here?
Rusty Keeler: Yeah, man. Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: I tell ya. All right.
Rusty Keeler: Oh my gosh. Yeah. All right. Well, Rachel, thank you so much. Thank you, Rusty. Always a pleasure to chat. Yes, likewise.
Rusty Keeler: Uh, lots of food for thought and directions, but we, we covered some ground.
Rachel Larimore: We did.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: Yeah. Yeah.
Rusty Keeler: Yeah.
Rachel Larimore: And we’ll cover more at some other time. Okay. ‘Cause there’s… Yeah. I love it.
Rusty Keeler: Good.
Rachel Larimore: It was good to talk with you.
Rusty Keeler: All right, you too. All right, till next time. All right.
Rachel Larimore: Take care. All right. See ya. Bye.
Rusty Keeler: All right. Thanks for listening Do you have a comment or a question? Email me at playnaturepodcast@gmail.com. You know I like talking about this stuff, and maybe we could use your question on a future podcast episode. As always, I have some free goodies for you in the show notes, including my outdoor loose parts guide.
Rusty Keeler: Fun stuff in there. And so I wish you the best in your outdoor play adventures. And when it comes to adding nature to your yard, or loose parts, or saying yes to risky play, my favorite motto is, “Dream big, start small, and never stop.” Oh, yeah. Woo, woo, woo, woo. Let’s do it. All right. Have fun out there
